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You keep saying that "public sector unions" are bad for society without giving any specific reasons why we should think so. What is so disastrous or traumatic

You keep saying that "public sector unions" are bad for society without giving any specific reasons why we should think so. What is so disastrous or traumatic about public sector unions? From my perspective, unions come with plenty of problems, largely the same problems as any large organization, but on the whole workers are better off when they have a union that represents them. Society as a whole benefits when people do not have to put off seeing a doctor because their employer decided to give them a garbage health plan. Society as a whole benefits when the wealth gap is kept under control. Unions, historically and currently, negotiate compensation and benefits in ways that individual workers cannot -- because an individual negotiating with a large organization is at a disadvantage (and corporations know this, which is why they try to prevent workers from forming unions). Society benefits when the people we rely on to sort and deliver packages are not being told to pee in a bottle just to save some time. Unions have been particularly important in dangerous occupations where cutting corners or working multiple roles can result in death or permanent injuries -- which is why unions formed in the first place and why unions remain strong in certain industries (railroads, etc.). Market forces work poorly when one side of the market has greater negotiating power and a greater ability to externalize costs than the other. Corporations have been known to rely on the welfare system instead of paying workers the minimum wages needed to live in a given region or provide effective health and retirement plans. Corporations work hard to avoid compensating workers for injuries and have faced few penalties for discrimination, harassment, and other abuses. Almost all the complaints about public-sector unions are based on myths or at best unusual and extreme examples. Things that work well often go unreported, and unions typically work well.

umvi 5y ago
> Almost all the complaints about public-sector unions are based on myths or at best unusual and extreme examples. Haven't you just done the same with complaints about corporations? "Society benefits when the people we rely on to sort and deliver packages are not being told to pee in a bottle just to save some time." Is this really the norm in corporate America, or "an unusual and extreme example"?
- betterunix2 5y ago
  That is relevant to the actual article, which is about Amazon warehouse workers unionizing in response to various abuses, including being told to pee in a bottle. Yes, most corporations are not asking people to pee in a bottle. On the other hand, as I said, individual workers have little negotiating power with a corporation, even a relatively small corporation, and the difference between union and non-union jobs is clear. It is not at all unusual or extreme for corporations to give non-union workers lower wages and lower-quality benefits because the corporation has outsized power to negotiate the terms of employment with individual workers. Non-union workers are more vulnerable to abuses and abuses are more common among non-union workers -- not extreme abuses, but mundane abuses that generally go unreported.

umvi 5y ago

> Almost all the complaints about public-sector unions are based on myths or at best unusual and extreme examples. Haven't you just done the same with complaints about corporations? "Society benefits when the people we rely on to sort and deliver packages are not being told to pee in a bottle just to save some time." Is this really the norm in corporate America, or "an unusual and extreme example"?

betterunix2 5y ago
That is relevant to the actual article, which is about Amazon warehouse workers unionizing in response to various abuses, including being told to pee in a bottle. Yes, most corporations are not asking people to pee in a bottle. On the other hand, as I said, individual workers have little negotiating power with a corporation, even a relatively small corporation, and the difference between union and non-union jobs is clear. It is not at all unusual or extreme for corporations to give non-union workers lower wages and lower-quality benefits because the corporation has outsized power to negotiate the terms of employment with individual workers. Non-union workers are more vulnerable to abuses and abuses are more common among non-union workers -- not extreme abuses, but mundane abuses that generally go unreported.