6 ms·

Apple's Safari browser runs the risk of becoming the new Internet Explorer

13 points by Eduard 5y ago

1cvmask 5y ago
That would mean it would have had a big market share to begin with.
- maxwell 5y ago
  Safari has held ~50% market share on mobile in the U.S. for half a decade. https://www.statista.com/statistics/272664/market-share-held-by-mobile-browsers-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/272664/market-share-held...
- Eduard 5y ago
  Here is the twist: on iOS devices (iPhone, iPad), third-party browsers such as Firefox and Chrome must use Safari's faulty and outdated WebKit engine. Therefore, websites will experience the same bugs even if you use a different browser. Suddenly you realise that Safari indeed effectively has a big market share - namely all Apple mobile devices browsing the web. I just spent a whole day working around a very annoying iOS Webkit/Safari quirk (HTML button elements not receiving focus). I had to resort to user agent sniffing and working around from there. I haven't had to do such stuff for a long time. Back in the Internet Explorer days, you could at least say "just use a better browser". With the Safari situation on iPhones and iPads there is no such choice. Installing Chrome just gives the browser a different skin with respect to the browser engine.
  - toper-centage 5y ago
    And the saddest part is that this precarious situation is basically what is saving us from an effective Blink monoculture. Firefox Market share keeps slowly going down on desktop and is almost negligible on android.
    - kitsunesoba 5y ago
      It’s a bit shocking to me how unpopular Firefox is on Android. I won’t use anything else on that platform because FF is the only way to get proper adblocking (uBlock Origin), and adblocking or lack thereof can make the difference between a low/moderate power device being usable or miserable.
      - Eduard 5y ago
        Use Blokada, then all your apps including Firefox and Chrome are adblocked
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      > Blink monoculture As long it's open source - I'm fine with it. World doesn't need multiple HTML parsers, that's where all the developer pain begins with. linux is monoculture in backend world and no one bats an eye
robgibbons 5y ago
Apple drags its feet on iOS Safari very deliberately. Supporting advanced web APIs on iOS would mean providing an open, non-monetizable alternative to the App Store platform for users and developers. And yet, Safari's market share on mobile is significant enough that we can't just ignore it. Thus, Apple holds back the entire web. Apple's conflict of interest is plain to see, and IMHO their hand should be forced by regulation.
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  That’s true to some extent, but there are also several things that the WebKit team has not implemented due to concerns centered around privacy or loss of user control, which are often shared by Mozilla. Apple should probably do more to keep up with web standards but they absolutely should not accept everything that Google tries to push through with Chrome. At this point, with Firefox marketshare sitting in the low single digit percentages, Apple with WebKit is the only meaningful opposition to Google and it would be incredibly damaging to lose that.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  At least Microsoft provided their dumb multi gb VMs to test on their old ie browsers. Apple expects you to buy their hardware. I hope the browser dies out as soon as possible, it's better for the Web and whole world than chrome based dominance.
mehrdada 5y ago
Internet Explorer did not quite “hold the web back for everyone,” at least not initially: in fact it was full of proprietary features that were non-existent or incompatible with the rest of the world which caused problems.
pleb_nz 5y ago
Most people I talk to would say Google and Chrome are the new IE in terms of monopolistic and corporate activities. Internet Explorer, as far as I know, never dragged the chain, more so they went off on there own tangent with additional functionality not supported by other browsers.

13 points by Eduard 5y ago

1cvmask 5y ago

That would mean it would have had a big market share to begin with.

maxwell 5y ago
Safari has held ~50% market share on mobile in the U.S. for half a decade. https://www.statista.com/statistics/272664/market-share-held-by-mobile-browsers-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/272664/market-share-held...
Eduard 5y ago
Here is the twist: on iOS devices (iPhone, iPad), third-party browsers such as Firefox and Chrome must use Safari's faulty and outdated WebKit engine. Therefore, websites will experience the same bugs even if you use a different browser. Suddenly you realise that Safari indeed effectively has a big market share - namely all Apple mobile devices browsing the web. I just spent a whole day working around a very annoying iOS Webkit/Safari quirk (HTML button elements not receiving focus). I had to resort to user agent sniffing and working around from there. I haven't had to do such stuff for a long time. Back in the Internet Explorer days, you could at least say "just use a better browser". With the Safari situation on iPhones and iPads there is no such choice. Installing Chrome just gives the browser a different skin with respect to the browser engine.
- toper-centage 5y ago
  And the saddest part is that this precarious situation is basically what is saving us from an effective Blink monoculture. Firefox Market share keeps slowly going down on desktop and is almost negligible on android.
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    It’s a bit shocking to me how unpopular Firefox is on Android. I won’t use anything else on that platform because FF is the only way to get proper adblocking (uBlock Origin), and adblocking or lack thereof can make the difference between a low/moderate power device being usable or miserable.
    - Eduard 5y ago
      Use Blokada, then all your apps including Firefox and Chrome are adblocked
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    > Blink monoculture As long it's open source - I'm fine with it. World doesn't need multiple HTML parsers, that's where all the developer pain begins with. linux is monoculture in backend world and no one bats an eye

robgibbons 5y ago

Apple drags its feet on iOS Safari very deliberately. Supporting advanced web APIs on iOS would mean providing an open, non-monetizable alternative to the App Store platform for users and developers. And yet, Safari's market share on mobile is significant enough that we can't just ignore it. Thus, Apple holds back the entire web. Apple's conflict of interest is plain to see, and IMHO their hand should be forced by regulation.

kitsunesoba 5y ago
That’s true to some extent, but there are also several things that the WebKit team has not implemented due to concerns centered around privacy or loss of user control, which are often shared by Mozilla. Apple should probably do more to keep up with web standards but they absolutely should not accept everything that Google tries to push through with Chrome. At this point, with Firefox marketshare sitting in the low single digit percentages, Apple with WebKit is the only meaningful opposition to Google and it would be incredibly damaging to lose that.
Dma54rhs 5y ago
At least Microsoft provided their dumb multi gb VMs to test on their old ie browsers. Apple expects you to buy their hardware. I hope the browser dies out as soon as possible, it's better for the Web and whole world than chrome based dominance.

mehrdada 5y ago

Internet Explorer did not quite “hold the web back for everyone,” at least not initially: in fact it was full of proprietary features that were non-existent or incompatible with the rest of the world which caused problems.

pleb_nz 5y ago

Most people I talk to would say Google and Chrome are the new IE in terms of monopolistic and corporate activities. Internet Explorer, as far as I know, never dragged the chain, more so they went off on there own tangent with additional functionality not supported by other browsers.