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You'd be impressed how good some people are at stealing items off you in plain sight. There was a dude on a DEFCON talk I believe who could steal the watch righ

by franga2000 5y ago

You'd be impressed how good some people are at stealing items off you in plain sight. There was a dude on a DEFCON talk I believe who could steal the watch right off of people's wrists and most people only noticed like a minute later - and they were paying attention. A skilled pickpocket could steal a card and be able to withdraw cash up to your limit at a back alley ATM compared. Theft is easy to conceal and deny, robbery (esp. armed robbery) is the exact opposite. As for skimmers, do any ATMs these days even accept magstripe? EMV cards are extremely difficult to clone so skimmers seem a bit useless.

jaclaz 5y ago
Rest assured, I have some familiarity with pickpocketing[1], at least here (Italy) there is a hard limit on ATM's draws (it depends on the actual card of course) typically 500 Euro per day on ATM's of the same bank that issued the card or 250 on other banks. So you go to the ATM and draw 500 Euro from it, I then can choose, after having setup the camera, the AI (or whatever), a powerful computer to run it, etc. between pickpocketing the card, and then be able to draw - on average - 40% of either 250 or 500 Euro or pickpocketing the 500 Euro directly. (of course I cannot wait "tomorrow" as in the meantime you will have realized that you card is missing and blocked it). So, as I see it, this approach is only somehow an advantage if you draw less than or around 40% of 250 Euro, 100 Euro or so. [1] not direct experience but it was more or less "invented" in Italy, the first (unofficial) official school for pickpocketing assertedly dating back to 1864: https://www.fabriziosalce.it/la-scuola-per-borsaioli-del-balon/ https://www.fabriziosalce.it/la-scuola-per-borsaioli-del-bal...
- franga2000 5y ago
  Depends on where you are I guess. Italy has a lot of tourists (in big cities at least) who often carry large amounts of cash, so taking cash does make sense. But I doubt most other people carry 500 € on them. In my experience most people regularly carry st most 50 € in cash, so going for cards makes sense. As you said, ATM limits of a 250-500€ are common, but that still beats the contactless limit of 25€ (not to mention you get cash and it's easier to conceal your identity at an ATM than a store). So up to 50€ in cash and 25€ in stuff vs up to 550 € in cash (on hand + ATM limit) sounds worth the effort to me.
  - jaclaz 5y ago
    Still, yes and no. My (simplicistic but simple) "get the money (and card, but without PIN) and run" approach is working 100% of cases (if you are a good pickpocketer). Your "get the money and the card and then use a sophisticated computerized method" is - at most - working 40% of cases (and you need to be BOTH a good pickpocketer AND a computer expert OR have a computer expert as accomplice[1]). If we imagine that 1/3 of people are like you say (with just 50 Euro), 1/3 is like I say (500 Euro) and 1/3 are mid-way (let's say 250 Euro), on average 12 "jobs" I have (let's exclude the 25 contactless, as they are the same in both cases: 4x50x100%=200 4x250x100%=1000 4x550x100%=2200 Total 3400 vs. 12x550x40%=2640 I am still ahead, if we have 1/2 at 50, 1/4 at 200 and 1/4 at 500: 6x50x100%=300 3x200x100%=600 3x550x100%=1650 Total 2550 we are roughly on par (I have no expenses for the computers, camera's etc.). BTW, "my" method is old, proved, always worked and will always work, "your" is going to have a hit now that these scientists told everyone about the method, people will start using "finger movements concealing devices"[2]. [1] in this latter case you will also have another person to divide profits with [2] the effectiveness of which might be the topic of a new article, besides the title of a new US patent application

jaclaz 5y ago

Rest assured, I have some familiarity with pickpocketing[1], at least here (Italy) there is a hard limit on ATM's draws (it depends on the actual card of course) typically 500 Euro per day on ATM's of the same bank that issued the card or 250 on other banks. So you go to the ATM and draw 500 Euro from it, I then can choose, after having setup the camera, the AI (or whatever), a powerful computer to run it, etc. between pickpocketing the card, and then be able to draw - on average - 40% of either 250 or 500 Euro or pickpocketing the 500 Euro directly. (of course I cannot wait "tomorrow" as in the meantime you will have realized that you card is missing and blocked it). So, as I see it, this approach is only somehow an advantage if you draw less than or around 40% of 250 Euro, 100 Euro or so. [1] not direct experience but it was more or less "invented" in Italy, the first (unofficial) official school for pickpocketing assertedly dating back to 1864: https://www.fabriziosalce.it/la-scuola-per-borsaioli-del-balon/ https://www.fabriziosalce.it/la-scuola-per-borsaioli-del-bal...

franga2000 5y ago
Depends on where you are I guess. Italy has a lot of tourists (in big cities at least) who often carry large amounts of cash, so taking cash does make sense. But I doubt most other people carry 500 € on them. In my experience most people regularly carry st most 50 € in cash, so going for cards makes sense. As you said, ATM limits of a 250-500€ are common, but that still beats the contactless limit of 25€ (not to mention you get cash and it's easier to conceal your identity at an ATM than a store). So up to 50€ in cash and 25€ in stuff vs up to 550 € in cash (on hand + ATM limit) sounds worth the effort to me.
- jaclaz 5y ago
  Still, yes and no. My (simplicistic but simple) "get the money (and card, but without PIN) and run" approach is working 100% of cases (if you are a good pickpocketer). Your "get the money and the card and then use a sophisticated computerized method" is - at most - working 40% of cases (and you need to be BOTH a good pickpocketer AND a computer expert OR have a computer expert as accomplice[1]). If we imagine that 1/3 of people are like you say (with just 50 Euro), 1/3 is like I say (500 Euro) and 1/3 are mid-way (let's say 250 Euro), on average 12 "jobs" I have (let's exclude the 25 contactless, as they are the same in both cases: 4x50x100%=200 4x250x100%=1000 4x550x100%=2200 Total 3400 vs. 12x550x40%=2640 I am still ahead, if we have 1/2 at 50, 1/4 at 200 and 1/4 at 500: 6x50x100%=300 3x200x100%=600 3x550x100%=1650 Total 2550 we are roughly on par (I have no expenses for the computers, camera's etc.). BTW, "my" method is old, proved, always worked and will always work, "your" is going to have a hit now that these scientists told everyone about the method, people will start using "finger movements concealing devices"[2]. [1] in this latter case you will also have another person to divide profits with [2] the effectiveness of which might be the topic of a new article, besides the title of a new US patent application