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I'm surprised you can't see that this counter-article is just plain old FUD. It should be a no-brainer that an operative system that is free, open, democratic,

I'm surprised you can't see that this counter-article is just plain old FUD. It should be a no-brainer that an operative system that is free, open, democratic, well documented and consisting of over 50,000 quality software packages---Debian, for example---is better than an OS which isn't any of those things. Of course software is (also) about ideology. If you find yourself advocating putting more money in the pockets of the already super rich, or pretending that there isn't a digital part of human life where people have rights, well then obviously you have picked sides.

fouric 5y ago
> I'm surprised you can't see that this counter-article is just plain old FUD. Content-less emotional manipulation - just the kind of thing that I hate to see on HN. You answered none of the points in the article itself, dismissing the entire thing out of hand with an acronym describing a concept that you provided no evidence actually applied to any of the arguments. > It should be a no-brainer that an operative system that is free, open, democratic, well documented and consisting of over 50,000 quality software packages---Debian, for example---is better than an OS which isn't any of those things. No. I've been using Linux as my daily driver for over a decade (and have spent far more time using it than Windows), and gotten a few other people on it, so I can say that, for actually getting things done and software just working, Windows is far better than Linux. An operating system where you have to struggle to get things done is a bad operating system. Linux isn't "democratic", either - Linus Torvalds controls kernel development, and the userspace components have wildly differing development practices. Nor is it "well documented" - Linux-related documentation is generally terrible to read. Technically correct? Sure - but that's not "well documented", that's an encyclopedia. Neither can you say that those "50,000" software packages are "quality" - the vast majority of open-source software that I've seen is buggy, under-documented, incomplete, and difficult to use. (I mean, so is the vast majority of proprietary software - but that software being "also bad" doesn't make OSS software "good") > Of course software is (also) about ideology. [...] well then obviously you have picked sides. Please leave your manipulative speech out of HN, and don't try to drag me (or anyone) into your idealistic flamewar. Microsoft is a company that is predatory towards its users, and that's why I recommend Linux despite all of its problems. Pretending that it has no problems, or is technically superior to Windows, and then piling on inflammatory dialog, does nobody any good.
- Kessler83 5y ago
  Well, Debian is free, open source, is more or less fully documented (and translated!) and has over 50,000 software packages that meticulously tested before the stable release every two years. That's not me being emotional or manipulative. It is a fact. I don't actually need to prove that software is (also) about ideology, as you just acknowledged it. But anyway, it is also a fact that if you use Windows, you are giving even more money and power to 1 American company that currently has like 85% total market share. Distribution of wealth and power over human (digital) life are clearly ideological issues. What is emotional is your statement that you think Windows is far better, that you think Linus Torvalds work somehow makes Debian undemocratic, that you think the documentation is terrible to read and that the vast majority of OSS you've seen is buggy etc. Being a software guy, I'm sure you can recognize a pattern, here :). Also, I understand that your time with GNU/Linux is supposed to impress. But to me it just means that you came in at least a decade after the FUD-era in the late nineties, which may explain why you can't see how the counter-article maps near perfectly to the old arguments about community, hardware support, lacking software and "not for everyone." Lastly, I'm not trying to start a flamewar. I'm just pointing out that the counter-article, which some other posters found well written, is classic FUD.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - fouric 5y ago
    The deceit and misdirection present in your response is astonishing. > Well, Debian is [...] That's not me being emotional or manipulative. It is a fact. You know very well that "emotional manipulation" was in response to your statement "I'm surprised you can't see that this counter-article is just plain old FUD." because I wrote me response directly after your quoted statement. This is one of the most deceitful things I've seen on HN in a while. Other HN readers: look at the beginning of my comment[1] and you'll see what a blatant mischaracterization this is. And, no, claiming that Debian is "more or less fully documented" and that those packages are "meticulously tested" is not "a fact"; those are highly subjective terms that I happen to strongly disagree with. > I don't actually need to prove that software is (also) about ideology, as you just acknowledged it. Yet another claim without any evidence. > What is emotional is your statement that you think Windows is far better, that you think Linus Torvalds work somehow makes Debian undemocratic, that you think the documentation is terrible to read and that the vast majority of OSS you've seen is buggy etc. False, false, and false. My belief that Windows is far better is not "emotional" - it's just that, a belief (believing that the earth is round is not emotional), based on my personal experiences, which are factual. Similarly, the fact that the vast majority of OSS that I've seen is buggy is also factual - it might not be representative, but calling it "emotional" is a false statement. Finally, it's a fact that having a benevolent dictator at the head of a project makes it undemocratic, unless you actually care to make an actual argument about it. > Being a software guy, I'm sure you can recognize a pattern, here :). Also, I understand that your time with GNU/Linux is supposed to impress. More manipulation, and snide comments. Pretty clear you're not acting in good faith. > which may explain why you can't see how the counter-article maps near perfectly to the old arguments I read the Halloween papers? However, I'm also capable of rational thought, and making arguments, and seeing logical fallacies - and you haven't presented a single actual argument that any of the points in the article are invalid, nor have you justified your assertion that the article is FUD - you've just claimed it and stopped. > Lastly, I'm not trying to start a flamewar. Your statement "well then obviously you have picked sides." suggests that that's false. If you're not actually trying to start a flamewar - your behavior suggests otherwise. > I'm just pointing out that the counter-article, which some other posters found well written, is classic FUD. False. You haven't "pointed out" anything - you made a claim that the article was FUD without actually addressing any of the points or providing any evidence whatsoever. Future HN readers: notice how cleverly this poster avoided making any logical arguments, or answering any of my points, or justifying their claims that the article was FUD. Beware - there are a lot of people who like to use labels to slander a person or organization without actually being able to show that those labels are accurate (because they're not). When reading a response to a comment, watch out to see if the response actually addresses the points made, or whether it tries to libel the previous comment, or strawman arguments, or just straight-up say things that are false. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28960936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28960936

fouric 5y ago

> I'm surprised you can't see that this counter-article is just plain old FUD. Content-less emotional manipulation - just the kind of thing that I hate to see on HN. You answered none of the points in the article itself, dismissing the entire thing out of hand with an acronym describing a concept that you provided no evidence actually applied to any of the arguments. > It should be a no-brainer that an operative system that is free, open, democratic, well documented and consisting of over 50,000 quality software packages---Debian, for example---is better than an OS which isn't any of those things. No. I've been using Linux as my daily driver for over a decade (and have spent far more time using it than Windows), and gotten a few other people on it, so I can say that, for actually getting things done and software just working, Windows is far better than Linux. An operating system where you have to struggle to get things done is a bad operating system. Linux isn't "democratic", either - Linus Torvalds controls kernel development, and the userspace components have wildly differing development practices. Nor is it "well documented" - Linux-related documentation is generally terrible to read. Technically correct? Sure - but that's not "well documented", that's an encyclopedia. Neither can you say that those "50,000" software packages are "quality" - the vast majority of open-source software that I've seen is buggy, under-documented, incomplete, and difficult to use. (I mean, so is the vast majority of proprietary software - but that software being "also bad" doesn't make OSS software "good") > Of course software is (also) about ideology. [...] well then obviously you have picked sides. Please leave your manipulative speech out of HN, and don't try to drag me (or anyone) into your idealistic flamewar. Microsoft is a company that is predatory towards its users, and that's why I recommend Linux despite all of its problems. Pretending that it has no problems, or is technically superior to Windows, and then piling on inflammatory dialog, does nobody any good.

Kessler83 5y ago
Well, Debian is free, open source, is more or less fully documented (and translated!) and has over 50,000 software packages that meticulously tested before the stable release every two years. That's not me being emotional or manipulative. It is a fact. I don't actually need to prove that software is (also) about ideology, as you just acknowledged it. But anyway, it is also a fact that if you use Windows, you are giving even more money and power to 1 American company that currently has like 85% total market share. Distribution of wealth and power over human (digital) life are clearly ideological issues. What is emotional is your statement that you think Windows is far better, that you think Linus Torvalds work somehow makes Debian undemocratic, that you think the documentation is terrible to read and that the vast majority of OSS you've seen is buggy etc. Being a software guy, I'm sure you can recognize a pattern, here :). Also, I understand that your time with GNU/Linux is supposed to impress. But to me it just means that you came in at least a decade after the FUD-era in the late nineties, which may explain why you can't see how the counter-article maps near perfectly to the old arguments about community, hardware support, lacking software and "not for everyone." Lastly, I'm not trying to start a flamewar. I'm just pointing out that the counter-article, which some other posters found well written, is classic FUD.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- fouric 5y ago
  The deceit and misdirection present in your response is astonishing. > Well, Debian is [...] That's not me being emotional or manipulative. It is a fact. You know very well that "emotional manipulation" was in response to your statement "I'm surprised you can't see that this counter-article is just plain old FUD." because I wrote me response directly after your quoted statement. This is one of the most deceitful things I've seen on HN in a while. Other HN readers: look at the beginning of my comment[1] and you'll see what a blatant mischaracterization this is. And, no, claiming that Debian is "more or less fully documented" and that those packages are "meticulously tested" is not "a fact"; those are highly subjective terms that I happen to strongly disagree with. > I don't actually need to prove that software is (also) about ideology, as you just acknowledged it. Yet another claim without any evidence. > What is emotional is your statement that you think Windows is far better, that you think Linus Torvalds work somehow makes Debian undemocratic, that you think the documentation is terrible to read and that the vast majority of OSS you've seen is buggy etc. False, false, and false. My belief that Windows is far better is not "emotional" - it's just that, a belief (believing that the earth is round is not emotional), based on my personal experiences, which are factual. Similarly, the fact that the vast majority of OSS that I've seen is buggy is also factual - it might not be representative, but calling it "emotional" is a false statement. Finally, it's a fact that having a benevolent dictator at the head of a project makes it undemocratic, unless you actually care to make an actual argument about it. > Being a software guy, I'm sure you can recognize a pattern, here :). Also, I understand that your time with GNU/Linux is supposed to impress. More manipulation, and snide comments. Pretty clear you're not acting in good faith. > which may explain why you can't see how the counter-article maps near perfectly to the old arguments I read the Halloween papers? However, I'm also capable of rational thought, and making arguments, and seeing logical fallacies - and you haven't presented a single actual argument that any of the points in the article are invalid, nor have you justified your assertion that the article is FUD - you've just claimed it and stopped. > Lastly, I'm not trying to start a flamewar. Your statement "well then obviously you have picked sides." suggests that that's false. If you're not actually trying to start a flamewar - your behavior suggests otherwise. > I'm just pointing out that the counter-article, which some other posters found well written, is classic FUD. False. You haven't "pointed out" anything - you made a claim that the article was FUD without actually addressing any of the points or providing any evidence whatsoever. Future HN readers: notice how cleverly this poster avoided making any logical arguments, or answering any of my points, or justifying their claims that the article was FUD. Beware - there are a lot of people who like to use labels to slander a person or organization without actually being able to show that those labels are accurate (because they're not). When reading a response to a comment, watch out to see if the response actually addresses the points made, or whether it tries to libel the previous comment, or strawman arguments, or just straight-up say things that are false. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28960936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28960936