4 ms·

I agree sexual predation is an overblown concern; my primary concern is that total unrestrained integration with society will exacerbate existing biological sex

by umvi 5y ago

I agree sexual predation is an overblown concern; my primary concern is that total unrestrained integration with society will exacerbate existing biological sex disparities: - trans women will have an advantage over biological women since they will be physically stronger on average - trans men will have a disadvantage compared to biological men since they will be physically weaker on average So basically, spaces traditionally carved for biological women could now be usurped by physically stronger self-IDing men in the pursuit of fame, profit, etc. I'm fine with trans women participating in sports, for example, but I don't think it's fair for self-IDing trans women to compete directly with biological women. If only there were a way to falsify self-ID claims with physical evidence, this would be a much easier problem.

whatshisface 5y ago
I think your physical strength argument, which bears the mark of having come from the sports debate, applies only to the sports debate and not to anywhere else. Where else is physical strength used competitively (it must be competitive, or else one person's success would not hurt anyone else) to obtain fame and profit? Also, league divisions are not done on the basis of physical strength. Should men who are classified as having innately low physical strength (through some kind of genetic or hormone test) be allowed to join the Women's leagues? If this design were taken to its logical conclusion, we would be calculating an innate ability for every athlete based on our best understanding of genetics and biology to subtract from their score or add to their time. Then, the best athlete in the world would be some fat guy from Odessa, who can't run a 10-minute mile but is related to people who can't run a 20-minute mile. I'm not entirely willing to discard this suggestion - obviously he deserves more respect than someone who was born faster than he is but never trains - but it would change everything about the way sports work.
- umvi 5y ago
  I guess my point is that if we make it a law that trans men and trans women must be treated indistinguishably from biological men/women under all circumstances, that even more bias in favor of biological males is going to creep into society anywhere physical strength or endurance matters (sports, military, manual labor, search and rescue, firefighting, etc.).
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    I think it's totally acceptable that your success in those areas (with the possible exception of sports, i.e. due to weight classes) should be determined by your performance and not at all by your category. After all, it sounds absurd to even point out that there are no welterweight wars.
    - umvi 5y ago
      Possibly. A few other hypotheticals: Do you think a biological male would be tempted to self-ID as a trans woman if he thought it would give him an advantage getting into a prestigious university like MIT? Do you think a biological male would be tempted to self-ID as a trans woman if he thought it would give him an advantage getting into a prestigious diversity-conscious STEM company like Google? Basically, I'm just concerned that if self-IDing has no downsides and only advantages, it will be gamed to the detriment of biological females.
      - mcphage 5y ago
        > Do you think a biological male would be tempted to self-ID as a trans woman Tempted to? Yeah, sure. Actually go through with it—identify themselves to others as a woman, live as a woman, and so on? Probably not. I don't think many could pull it off. And if you messed up, boom, fraud—out the door you go.
        umvi 5y ago
        Couldn't you just self-ID to one gender, have your cake, self-ID back to your original gender and eat it too? It's not like there's a centralized record enforcing your gender. It's all the honor system. In this day and age you just declare your new gender/preferred pronouns/preferred name on Twitter and that's that. No prescription from a doctor, no legal name change, nothing. Just a tweet and you are done. Nothing is falsifiable.
        mcphage 5y ago

by umvi 5y ago

whatshisface 5y ago

I think your physical strength argument, which bears the mark of having come from the sports debate, applies only to the sports debate and not to anywhere else. Where else is physical strength used competitively (it must be competitive, or else one person's success would not hurt anyone else) to obtain fame and profit? Also, league divisions are not done on the basis of physical strength. Should men who are classified as having innately low physical strength (through some kind of genetic or hormone test) be allowed to join the Women's leagues? If this design were taken to its logical conclusion, we would be calculating an innate ability for every athlete based on our best understanding of genetics and biology to subtract from their score or add to their time. Then, the best athlete in the world would be some fat guy from Odessa, who can't run a 10-minute mile but is related to people who can't run a 20-minute mile. I'm not entirely willing to discard this suggestion - obviously he deserves more respect than someone who was born faster than he is but never trains - but it would change everything about the way sports work.

umvi 5y ago
I guess my point is that if we make it a law that trans men and trans women must be treated indistinguishably from biological men/women under all circumstances, that even more bias in favor of biological males is going to creep into society anywhere physical strength or endurance matters (sports, military, manual labor, search and rescue, firefighting, etc.).
- whatshisface 5y ago
  I think it's totally acceptable that your success in those areas (with the possible exception of sports, i.e. due to weight classes) should be determined by your performance and not at all by your category. After all, it sounds absurd to even point out that there are no welterweight wars.
  - umvi 5y ago
    Possibly. A few other hypotheticals: Do you think a biological male would be tempted to self-ID as a trans woman if he thought it would give him an advantage getting into a prestigious university like MIT? Do you think a biological male would be tempted to self-ID as a trans woman if he thought it would give him an advantage getting into a prestigious diversity-conscious STEM company like Google? Basically, I'm just concerned that if self-IDing has no downsides and only advantages, it will be gamed to the detriment of biological females.
    - mcphage 5y ago
      > Do you think a biological male would be tempted to self-ID as a trans woman Tempted to? Yeah, sure. Actually go through with it—identify themselves to others as a woman, live as a woman, and so on? Probably not. I don't think many could pull it off. And if you messed up, boom, fraud—out the door you go.
      - umvi 5y ago
        Couldn't you just self-ID to one gender, have your cake, self-ID back to your original gender and eat it too? It's not like there's a centralized record enforcing your gender. It's all the honor system. In this day and age you just declare your new gender/preferred pronouns/preferred name on Twitter and that's that. No prescription from a doctor, no legal name change, nothing. Just a tweet and you are done. Nothing is falsifiable.
        mcphage 5y ago