7 ms·

I feel like with the uptick in Linux gaming, Valve's investment in Proton, the Steam Deck, EAC/Battleye compatibility with Proton, modern desktops catching up t

by Zhyl 5y ago

I feel like with the uptick in Linux gaming, Valve's investment in Proton, the Steam Deck, EAC/Battleye compatibility with Proton, modern desktops catching up to Windows look and feel, it's closer to being 'the year of the Linux desktop' than ever before. Sure, 'the year of the Linux desktop' is a loosely defined term that doesn't necessarily have any key metrics that you'd agree with, and it's not like any of the world's governments or corporations are suddenly going to overhaul their entire desktop IT inventory in 12 months, but for the first time ever I have seen people say '2022 is the year of the Linux desktop' and I think that there is actual substance to it rather than just blind naïve optimism.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
"The year of Linux on the desktop" is a meme for a specific reason. It'll take longer than a year. The claim is funny because you imagine the whole world switching to Linux, like, overnight. Which is obviously unrealistic. It's a gradual process. But last year Chromebooks outsold Macs. Chromebooks are Linux. Even if they're not "Linux Linux," there isn't much you can do with one that you can't do with most other distributions. Which demonstrates that the barriers to adoption are falling and a major factor is now the need for better marketing. That still doesn't mean the percentage of desktops running Linux will be at 97% by end of December. But it'll probably be higher than it was last year.
- Zhyl 5y ago
  I agree with this. It's hard to engage with people like GP saying things like 'the year of the Linux desktop will never happen', as they are using the term to essentially dismiss Linux as a platform, however in order to counter it or to highlight the progress that has been made, you are effectively having to sidestep bad-faith framing of the issue. I don't think GP was universally dismissing Linux in the way that it is normally used (there are plenty of better examples in this thread, though), but it is similarly an inflammatory comment to make that detracts from proper discussion.
  - simonh 5y ago
    >they are using the term to essentially dismiss Linux as a platform The original framing of 'year of the Linux desktop' from back in the 90s was predicated on the assumption that desktop OSes were mature, that Desktop Linux would soon catch up in usability with the proprietary ones, and then free would win. It was the precursor to Google's "open always wins" mantra with Android. That is almost certainly never going to happen, and it's fine. The Linux desktop scene is very mature at this point, and we're all the better for it being there as a developer, sysadmin and hobbyist playground. If the traditional GNOME, KDE, xfce, etc style Linux desktop never becomes a mainstream option for high street users that's fine and it's not dismissive. It's just recognising the reality, after well over 20 years.
    - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
      One of the things I learned watching decades of development of computing is to never say never. Things like "the laptop I bought just a couple of years ago is not supported by the most recent version of Windows" might seem insignificant now, but in the hindsight it's one these little things that influence global changes and future trends.
    - Zhyl 5y ago
      I think there is a difference between recognising current reality and trying to snub something out of hand. I find those that are doing an honest appraisal of the current situation usually won't use the phrase in either a positive or a negative sense.
      - filmgirlcw 5y ago
        But again, I’m not snubbing anything out of hand. If it is controversial to say that regardless of kernel, successful consumer operating systems require billions of dollars of investment, I’ll own that. But that’s being dismissive. That’s being a realist and responding to the nature of the article posted, which in my opinion was a lot of recycled from 2006 talking points that are still getting clicks and discussion like it’s fucking Slashdot or something. OS wars and text editor wars are eternal, I realize. But my response was to the article, not snubbing or even impugning the very hard and very impressive work that has happened over the last 30 years with Linux. Again, I think there are some really valid reasons to move to Linux. I don’t think this article was a good example.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Outside US school market and Googleplex, Chromebooks are nowhere to be found. Also running the Linux kernel is an implementation detail, those that allow for GNU/Linux applications and Android, without breaking security into developer mode, do it with additional VMs, hardly any different from running WSL + WSL/Android on Windows 11.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    > Outside US school market and Googleplex, Chromebooks are nowhere to be found. Lots of consumers buy them directly from Best Buy etc. But let's say they're only used in schools. Well, then the next generation is being brought up with machines that don't depend on any Windows apps. > Also running the Linux kernel is an implementation detail, those that allow for GNU/Linux applications and Android, without breaking security into developer mode, do it with additional VMs, hardly any different from running WSL + WSL/Android on Windows 11. That means it's a subset of Linux. It can't do things Linux can't do, so switching from there to "real" Linux has no significant barriers.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      > Lots of consumers buy them directly from Best Buy etc. Here in Germany every single time they appear on consumer stores in shopping malls, they get promoted every week until finally they manage to get rid of the stock. It is always an interesting experience to see the same units with different kinds of offers similar to the pile of Android phones close by. Most consumers have no idea what real Linux is supposed to, they just see a Laptop that cannot make use of the software most of their friends are using.
- md8z 5y ago
  IMO "year of the linux desktop" is a meme left over from the dot-com bubble in the early 2000s, when everyone was starting Linux companies and everyone thought theirs would be the dominant one. We know now that it's not a growth market, and most of those companies failed. You only have to watch Canonical's missteps to see how this continues even to today. (And realistically, they are the dominant one and have been for some time, not Valve or Red Hat or anyone else.) I actually heavily dislike that phrase and would suggest that people stop using it because it just reflects on the terrible type of bundle-open-source-and-get-rich-quick thinking that plagued that era, and distracts from the actual problems that need to be solved in order to ship Linux in various environments.
Mikeb85 5y ago
> modern desktops catching up to Windows look and feel Honestly, ever since Gnome Shell Linux has been ahead of Windows in look and feel, IMO anyway. That being said, the year of the Linux desktop isn't a thing anymore because honestly, desktops (or laptops) aren't that much of a thing anymore. For consuming media, phones, tablets and TVs are the main devices. For gaming, phones and consoles. Laptops/desktops are mostly for work, most people I know don't even own one.
- Zhyl 5y ago
  This is a fair argument that I don't see as often as I should.
pxc 5y ago
I think in some ways ‘the year of the Linux desktop’ is an artifact from thinking about computing and operating systems in a way that is now outdated in ways unrelated to the situation of desktop Linux. ‘The year of the Linux desktop’ was an interesting vision of the future when thinking about the way people use computers at home meant thinking about Microsoft, and when people commonly (if probably erroneously even then) thought about Microsoft's market position mainly in terms of Windows desktop licenses. But nowadays the computers we use for most things at home are phones or tablets, and web apps have displaced native applications for a ton of the most common activities in desktop computing. The question of the year of the Linux desktop is also one that's not really asked from the position of Linux users. It's a question about market trends, or what big desktop and laptop manufacturers might be doing with desktop Linux. But for existing Linux desktop users, or even just Linux desktop dabblers, the propositions that might actually impact their decisions or quality of life aren't really interrogated directly by the question of the year of the Linux desktop as it's usually framed. Existing and prospective Linux desktop users are mostly interested in a ‘weaker’ year of the Linux desktop than one envisioned by massive corporate or government deployments: * can I buy hardware that I know will just work with pretty much any Linux distro at a reasonable price from more than one or two vendors that are convenient, given where I live? * when I buy peripherals or other accessories, will there be enough options at the store (physical or online) which mention Linux or bear the Tux logo that I can quickly make a choice without having to go online to consult some compatibility database? * will my employer let me use desktop Linux at the office if I prefer it for my workflow? * if I use desktop Linux at home, will I have to do a bunch of extra work to play a few casual rounds of the trendiest online multiplayer game with some friends? and so on. > for the first time ever I have seen people say '2022 is the year of the Linux desktop' and I think that there is actual substance to it rather than just blind naïve optimism. I'm inclined to stay away from the phrase ‘year of the Linux desktop’ because it still recalls a lot of thinking firmly footed in the landscape of the late 90s and early aughts. But when we re-evaluate the YotLD as a proposition centered on current Linux desktop users and users who are likely to consider it in the moderate term, I think it makes sense to talk about it as something that's rapidly arriving or already here.

by Zhyl 5y ago

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

"The year of Linux on the desktop" is a meme for a specific reason. It'll take longer than a year. The claim is funny because you imagine the whole world switching to Linux, like, overnight. Which is obviously unrealistic. It's a gradual process. But last year Chromebooks outsold Macs. Chromebooks are Linux. Even if they're not "Linux Linux," there isn't much you can do with one that you can't do with most other distributions. Which demonstrates that the barriers to adoption are falling and a major factor is now the need for better marketing. That still doesn't mean the percentage of desktops running Linux will be at 97% by end of December. But it'll probably be higher than it was last year.

Zhyl 5y ago
I agree with this. It's hard to engage with people like GP saying things like 'the year of the Linux desktop will never happen', as they are using the term to essentially dismiss Linux as a platform, however in order to counter it or to highlight the progress that has been made, you are effectively having to sidestep bad-faith framing of the issue. I don't think GP was universally dismissing Linux in the way that it is normally used (there are plenty of better examples in this thread, though), but it is similarly an inflammatory comment to make that detracts from proper discussion.
- simonh 5y ago
  >they are using the term to essentially dismiss Linux as a platform The original framing of 'year of the Linux desktop' from back in the 90s was predicated on the assumption that desktop OSes were mature, that Desktop Linux would soon catch up in usability with the proprietary ones, and then free would win. It was the precursor to Google's "open always wins" mantra with Android. That is almost certainly never going to happen, and it's fine. The Linux desktop scene is very mature at this point, and we're all the better for it being there as a developer, sysadmin and hobbyist playground. If the traditional GNOME, KDE, xfce, etc style Linux desktop never becomes a mainstream option for high street users that's fine and it's not dismissive. It's just recognising the reality, after well over 20 years.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    One of the things I learned watching decades of development of computing is to never say never. Things like "the laptop I bought just a couple of years ago is not supported by the most recent version of Windows" might seem insignificant now, but in the hindsight it's one these little things that influence global changes and future trends.
  - Zhyl 5y ago
    I think there is a difference between recognising current reality and trying to snub something out of hand. I find those that are doing an honest appraisal of the current situation usually won't use the phrase in either a positive or a negative sense.
    - filmgirlcw 5y ago
      But again, I’m not snubbing anything out of hand. If it is controversial to say that regardless of kernel, successful consumer operating systems require billions of dollars of investment, I’ll own that. But that’s being dismissive. That’s being a realist and responding to the nature of the article posted, which in my opinion was a lot of recycled from 2006 talking points that are still getting clicks and discussion like it’s fucking Slashdot or something. OS wars and text editor wars are eternal, I realize. But my response was to the article, not snubbing or even impugning the very hard and very impressive work that has happened over the last 30 years with Linux. Again, I think there are some really valid reasons to move to Linux. I don’t think this article was a good example.
pjmlp 5y ago
Outside US school market and Googleplex, Chromebooks are nowhere to be found. Also running the Linux kernel is an implementation detail, those that allow for GNU/Linux applications and Android, without breaking security into developer mode, do it with additional VMs, hardly any different from running WSL + WSL/Android on Windows 11.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  > Outside US school market and Googleplex, Chromebooks are nowhere to be found. Lots of consumers buy them directly from Best Buy etc. But let's say they're only used in schools. Well, then the next generation is being brought up with machines that don't depend on any Windows apps. > Also running the Linux kernel is an implementation detail, those that allow for GNU/Linux applications and Android, without breaking security into developer mode, do it with additional VMs, hardly any different from running WSL + WSL/Android on Windows 11. That means it's a subset of Linux. It can't do things Linux can't do, so switching from there to "real" Linux has no significant barriers.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    > Lots of consumers buy them directly from Best Buy etc. Here in Germany every single time they appear on consumer stores in shopping malls, they get promoted every week until finally they manage to get rid of the stock. It is always an interesting experience to see the same units with different kinds of offers similar to the pile of Android phones close by. Most consumers have no idea what real Linux is supposed to, they just see a Laptop that cannot make use of the software most of their friends are using.
md8z 5y ago
IMO "year of the linux desktop" is a meme left over from the dot-com bubble in the early 2000s, when everyone was starting Linux companies and everyone thought theirs would be the dominant one. We know now that it's not a growth market, and most of those companies failed. You only have to watch Canonical's missteps to see how this continues even to today. (And realistically, they are the dominant one and have been for some time, not Valve or Red Hat or anyone else.) I actually heavily dislike that phrase and would suggest that people stop using it because it just reflects on the terrible type of bundle-open-source-and-get-rich-quick thinking that plagued that era, and distracts from the actual problems that need to be solved in order to ship Linux in various environments.

Mikeb85 5y ago

> modern desktops catching up to Windows look and feel Honestly, ever since Gnome Shell Linux has been ahead of Windows in look and feel, IMO anyway. That being said, the year of the Linux desktop isn't a thing anymore because honestly, desktops (or laptops) aren't that much of a thing anymore. For consuming media, phones, tablets and TVs are the main devices. For gaming, phones and consoles. Laptops/desktops are mostly for work, most people I know don't even own one.

Zhyl 5y ago
This is a fair argument that I don't see as often as I should.

pxc 5y ago

I think in some ways ‘the year of the Linux desktop’ is an artifact from thinking about computing and operating systems in a way that is now outdated in ways unrelated to the situation of desktop Linux. ‘The year of the Linux desktop’ was an interesting vision of the future when thinking about the way people use computers at home meant thinking about Microsoft, and when people commonly (if probably erroneously even then) thought about Microsoft's market position mainly in terms of Windows desktop licenses. But nowadays the computers we use for most things at home are phones or tablets, and web apps have displaced native applications for a ton of the most common activities in desktop computing. The question of the year of the Linux desktop is also one that's not really asked from the position of Linux users. It's a question about market trends, or what big desktop and laptop manufacturers might be doing with desktop Linux. But for existing Linux desktop users, or even just Linux desktop dabblers, the propositions that might actually impact their decisions or quality of life aren't really interrogated directly by the question of the year of the Linux desktop as it's usually framed. Existing and prospective Linux desktop users are mostly interested in a ‘weaker’ year of the Linux desktop than one envisioned by massive corporate or government deployments: * can I buy hardware that I know will just work with pretty much any Linux distro at a reasonable price from more than one or two vendors that are convenient, given where I live? * when I buy peripherals or other accessories, will there be enough options at the store (physical or online) which mention Linux or bear the Tux logo that I can quickly make a choice without having to go online to consult some compatibility database? * will my employer let me use desktop Linux at the office if I prefer it for my workflow? * if I use desktop Linux at home, will I have to do a bunch of extra work to play a few casual rounds of the trendiest online multiplayer game with some friends? and so on. > for the first time ever I have seen people say '2022 is the year of the Linux desktop' and I think that there is actual substance to it rather than just blind naïve optimism. I'm inclined to stay away from the phrase ‘year of the Linux desktop’ because it still recalls a lot of thinking firmly footed in the landscape of the late 90s and early aughts. But when we re-evaluate the YotLD as a proposition centered on current Linux desktop users and users who are likely to consider it in the moderate term, I think it makes sense to talk about it as something that's rapidly arriving or already here.