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> There are plenty of Linux distributions with tons of telemetry and spyware (Deepin Linux is literally run by the Chinese government) Trying to "Both Sides" t

by msla 5y ago

> There are plenty of Linux distributions with tons of telemetry and spyware (Deepin Linux is literally run by the Chinese government) Trying to "Both Sides" telemetry and spyware fails because you can use Linux without either, whereas macOS and Windows are inherently married to it and you can't use them without submitting to their respective surveillance regimes. Oddities like Deepin barely matter and can't be used to honestly say Linux is just as bad as a closed-source OS.

walls 5y ago
That's weird because I ran a tool to disable it in Windows the day I installed it. I'd wager it was even easier than disabling it on those Linux distros.
- chayleaf 5y ago
  the tools don't disable all telemetry, besides, most linux distros have no telemetry to disable
- roman-holovin 5y ago
  Just wait for an update that will reenable everything you've disabled.
  - mkipper 5y ago
    Don't forget that it might come bundled with other helpful updates with no way to choose which pieces to pull in. I can't believe people are actually comparing telemetry in Windows to Linux.
    - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
      > I can't believe people are actually comparing telemetry in Windows to Linux. I'm not surprised - at least some of these people are Microsoft employees so it's no wonder they try to use the same strategy as always - fear, uncertainty and doubt. After all, if people start believing that "Linux also has telemetry", why even consider switching? Actually I'm happy to hear it from the mouth of Microsoft employees (especially "advocacy" guys, i.e. paid to convince others): it means that Microsoft does care, they do consider Linux a threat, and the war is definitely not over.
      - md8z 5y ago
        There's no FUD. Ubuntu actually does have telemetry. KDE does too. It may not be quite the same in implementation as Microsoft's telemetry, but it is there. There is also nothing to be afraid of here either, the effects of it and how to use it are all spelled out clearly in the respective privacy policies. https://ubuntu.com/legal/data-privacy https://ubuntu.com/legal/data-privacy https://community.kde.org/Telemetry_Use https://community.kde.org/Telemetry_Use "Why even consider switching" is the eternal question that Linux companies have not been able to adequately answer for the last few decades. If you know of a good reason, let me know. Otherwise we can agree that the "war" was already over a long time ago and Microsoft won pretty clearly.
        fouric 5y ago
        > Ubuntu actually does have telemetry. KDE does too. Ahh, yes, Ubuntu and KDE = Linux. Very logical. > It may not be quite the same in implementation as Microsoft's telemetry, but it is there. There can be a world of difference between telemetry implementations. Debian's popcount, for instance, is opt-in - Windows' are mostly (if not all) opt-out. Ubuntu and KDE send their data to organizations that I trust - Windows do not. Ubuntu and KDE's telemetry remain off when I turn it off - Windows' does not. I know exactly what data KDE collects, because it's spelled out in that page you linked - I don't know what data Windows or Ubuntu collect. Given the extreme variance in telemetry implementations, trying to falsely equivocate Windows and Linux telemetry is FUD.
        md8z 5y ago
        "Ahh, yes, Ubuntu and KDE = Linux." In this case, yes. Ubuntu and KDE are two major players in desktop Linux. There really is not anything stopping Linux vendors from using telemetry, and in fact I'd expect them to use more of it in the event their products get more popular. "Debian's popcount, for instance, is opt-in - Windows' are mostly (if not all) opt-out." This is a minor detail and I don't think it actually matters. If a company actually needs that data and is not getting it from that telemetry then they're getting it from somewhere else. For example Canonical builds products on Debian and doesn't use popcon, they use other data collection mechanisms, which are detailed in the privacy policy I posted. "Ubuntu and KDE send their data to organizations that I trust" This has nothing to do with the implementation. Plus, Microsoft's dedicated customers do trust Microsoft to similar degree, so this is not going to be convincing to them. You need a better selling point. "Ubuntu and KDE's telemetry remain off when I turn it off - Windows' does not." That sounds to me like a bug or glitch that someone should fix. Ubuntu or KDE could also manifest such bugs, I guess we're just lucky they haven't. "I don't know what data Windows or Ubuntu collect" It's possible to change that. You can just read the Ubuntu privacy policy that I posted. Windows also has a similar privacy policy, you should do a search for it if you're interested. "trying to falsely equivocate Windows and Linux telemetry is FUD" Actually I have not done this, I mentioned they're different, and I explicitly explained how you shouldn't be afraid, uncertain or doubting anything. In a lot of cases (including some you mentioned) telemetry is not actually bad, and Windows users may feel that it's not bad for them either. I can give you more details if you need them. Please just don't misuse the phrase "FUD" like this.
filmgirlcw 5y ago
I actually disagree. Ubuntu has a lot of telemetry on by default (unlike Deepin, they disclose this, but I'm pointing this out) and for many years, Canonical really tried to push the whole account login thing (RIP Ubuntu One). Not to mention the time Ubuntu inserted Amazon affiliate links into the search app (which to their credit, they eventually removed -- tho the Amazon app that was just an affiliate launcher didn't go away until LAST YEAR). In fact, I would argue that most distributions with a focus on user interface and usability tend to have a lot more of the things that macOS and Windows have, like user accounts (tied to app stores or whatever), giving back telemetry (which is often really, really important for developers to have), or are part of major enterprise servicing agreements that have a lot of tracking and management by design. Plus, whether you use a Mac, Windows, or Linux, most users are going to be using Chrome as their web browser, almost certainly attached to a Google account, watching Netflix, using a cloud service for storage, and what, playing games using Proton, which is sure giving Steam a whole lot of your data. The web won and the web surveils us. It just does. If it makes you feel better that your chosen distro doesn't have as many options enabled by default and that you can't have a common user account to sync settings across multiple desktops, that's awesome. But I think that ignores a fundamental way humans use computers and the web -- regardless of OS. You're being surveilled. Linux isn't going to save you.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  > I actually disagree. Of course you disagree because it's your job. Satya Nadella himself makes sure you try to sway the opinion here in favor of your company [0]: "In fact, this morning, I was reading a news article in Hacker News, which is a community where we have been working hard to make sure that Azure is growing in popularity and I was pleasantly surprised to see that we have made a lot of progress..." Hint: criticizing Linux in such a heavy-handed way won't work that well. [0 ]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/events/FY-2019/earnings-fy-2019-q1.aspx https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/events/FY-2019/earn...
  - md8z 5y ago
    Please don't be so cynical. I don't work for Microsoft, I've been using Linux for about 20 years and I haven't used Windows seriously in about that long, and I agree entirely with her comment. Once you go adding all the things to Linux that Windows users want, it starts to look a lot like Windows in more than one way...

by msla 5y ago

walls 5y ago

That's weird because I ran a tool to disable it in Windows the day I installed it. I'd wager it was even easier than disabling it on those Linux distros.

chayleaf 5y ago
the tools don't disable all telemetry, besides, most linux distros have no telemetry to disable
roman-holovin 5y ago
Just wait for an update that will reenable everything you've disabled.
- mkipper 5y ago
  Don't forget that it might come bundled with other helpful updates with no way to choose which pieces to pull in. I can't believe people are actually comparing telemetry in Windows to Linux.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    > I can't believe people are actually comparing telemetry in Windows to Linux. I'm not surprised - at least some of these people are Microsoft employees so it's no wonder they try to use the same strategy as always - fear, uncertainty and doubt. After all, if people start believing that "Linux also has telemetry", why even consider switching? Actually I'm happy to hear it from the mouth of Microsoft employees (especially "advocacy" guys, i.e. paid to convince others): it means that Microsoft does care, they do consider Linux a threat, and the war is definitely not over.
    - md8z 5y ago
      There's no FUD. Ubuntu actually does have telemetry. KDE does too. It may not be quite the same in implementation as Microsoft's telemetry, but it is there. There is also nothing to be afraid of here either, the effects of it and how to use it are all spelled out clearly in the respective privacy policies. https://ubuntu.com/legal/data-privacy https://ubuntu.com/legal/data-privacy https://community.kde.org/Telemetry_Use https://community.kde.org/Telemetry_Use "Why even consider switching" is the eternal question that Linux companies have not been able to adequately answer for the last few decades. If you know of a good reason, let me know. Otherwise we can agree that the "war" was already over a long time ago and Microsoft won pretty clearly.
      - fouric 5y ago
        > Ubuntu actually does have telemetry. KDE does too. Ahh, yes, Ubuntu and KDE = Linux. Very logical. > It may not be quite the same in implementation as Microsoft's telemetry, but it is there. There can be a world of difference between telemetry implementations. Debian's popcount, for instance, is opt-in - Windows' are mostly (if not all) opt-out. Ubuntu and KDE send their data to organizations that I trust - Windows do not. Ubuntu and KDE's telemetry remain off when I turn it off - Windows' does not. I know exactly what data KDE collects, because it's spelled out in that page you linked - I don't know what data Windows or Ubuntu collect. Given the extreme variance in telemetry implementations, trying to falsely equivocate Windows and Linux telemetry is FUD.
        md8z 5y ago
        "Ahh, yes, Ubuntu and KDE = Linux." In this case, yes. Ubuntu and KDE are two major players in desktop Linux. There really is not anything stopping Linux vendors from using telemetry, and in fact I'd expect them to use more of it in the event their products get more popular. "Debian's popcount, for instance, is opt-in - Windows' are mostly (if not all) opt-out." This is a minor detail and I don't think it actually matters. If a company actually needs that data and is not getting it from that telemetry then they're getting it from somewhere else. For example Canonical builds products on Debian and doesn't use popcon, they use other data collection mechanisms, which are detailed in the privacy policy I posted. "Ubuntu and KDE send their data to organizations that I trust" This has nothing to do with the implementation. Plus, Microsoft's dedicated customers do trust Microsoft to similar degree, so this is not going to be convincing to them. You need a better selling point. "Ubuntu and KDE's telemetry remain off when I turn it off - Windows' does not." That sounds to me like a bug or glitch that someone should fix. Ubuntu or KDE could also manifest such bugs, I guess we're just lucky they haven't. "I don't know what data Windows or Ubuntu collect" It's possible to change that. You can just read the Ubuntu privacy policy that I posted. Windows also has a similar privacy policy, you should do a search for it if you're interested. "trying to falsely equivocate Windows and Linux telemetry is FUD" Actually I have not done this, I mentioned they're different, and I explicitly explained how you shouldn't be afraid, uncertain or doubting anything. In a lot of cases (including some you mentioned) telemetry is not actually bad, and Windows users may feel that it's not bad for them either. I can give you more details if you need them. Please just don't misuse the phrase "FUD" like this.

filmgirlcw 5y ago

I actually disagree. Ubuntu has a lot of telemetry on by default (unlike Deepin, they disclose this, but I'm pointing this out) and for many years, Canonical really tried to push the whole account login thing (RIP Ubuntu One). Not to mention the time Ubuntu inserted Amazon affiliate links into the search app (which to their credit, they eventually removed -- tho the Amazon app that was just an affiliate launcher didn't go away until LAST YEAR). In fact, I would argue that most distributions with a focus on user interface and usability tend to have a lot more of the things that macOS and Windows have, like user accounts (tied to app stores or whatever), giving back telemetry (which is often really, really important for developers to have), or are part of major enterprise servicing agreements that have a lot of tracking and management by design. Plus, whether you use a Mac, Windows, or Linux, most users are going to be using Chrome as their web browser, almost certainly attached to a Google account, watching Netflix, using a cloud service for storage, and what, playing games using Proton, which is sure giving Steam a whole lot of your data. The web won and the web surveils us. It just does. If it makes you feel better that your chosen distro doesn't have as many options enabled by default and that you can't have a common user account to sync settings across multiple desktops, that's awesome. But I think that ignores a fundamental way humans use computers and the web -- regardless of OS. You're being surveilled. Linux isn't going to save you.

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
> I actually disagree. Of course you disagree because it's your job. Satya Nadella himself makes sure you try to sway the opinion here in favor of your company [0]: "In fact, this morning, I was reading a news article in Hacker News, which is a community where we have been working hard to make sure that Azure is growing in popularity and I was pleasantly surprised to see that we have made a lot of progress..." Hint: criticizing Linux in such a heavy-handed way won't work that well. [0 ]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/events/FY-2019/earnings-fy-2019-q1.aspx https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/events/FY-2019/earn...
- md8z 5y ago
  Please don't be so cynical. I don't work for Microsoft, I've been using Linux for about 20 years and I haven't used Windows seriously in about that long, and I agree entirely with her comment. Once you go adding all the things to Linux that Windows users want, it starts to look a lot like Windows in more than one way...