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You're absolutely right, and it's insane that people don't realize this. So many people that want police reform in the US think that somehow we can continue to

You're absolutely right, and it's insane that people don't realize this. So many people that want police reform in the US think that somehow we can continue to let the police be mostly made up by people with a certain political persuasion and education level, and that we can simply control them with laws and incentives.

sethammons 5y ago
> political persuasion and education level Sorry, I'm not following. My understanding is that the job attracts bullies and I see bullies from all political persuasions and all education levels.
- macintux 5y ago
  I think the recently-departed administration in the U.S. has done a good job of helping bullies self-select themselves into its party.
  - quacked 5y ago
    I find that bullies can be found in equal proportions in both parties, but I do agree that the type of bully who is willing to walk the street with a gun in the name of justice does have a more welcoming home in one major party than the other.
    - aksss 5y ago
      You should talk to some homicide detectives, or even the people who deal with the day-to-day issues at the street level in downtown areas. The things they see on a regular basis are pretty mind-blowing, and not just per-incident, but cyclically and systemically. Their perspective on government policy and it’s effects are far different than ours by the nature of their jobs. That is a partial factor in how they vote and how they donate, particularly as of late. Their life experience is dealing with the disproportionately bad aspects of society, just like you probably have a disproportionately good existence. There are assumptions and biases that come from both these exposure models. And maybe it’s just a problem with their delivery, but if you hear a political party (unfortunately the loudmouth fringe more often than not) incessantly talking about how you suck, should be presumed to be an evil murderer, and advocate policies that you feel put your daily safety at further risk, you might rethink your donations and voting history as well. Not defending the bad cultures and actors whatsoever, but there’s more room for nuance in discussing the issues we have policing this large, individualistic, culturally heterogenous, heavily medicated and critically unmedicated country. The problem is a hard one, so easy simple answers should be viewed with skepticism. There is no “just do what Norway does” answer to the problem that can be made in good faith.
      - quacked 5y ago
        Oh, I completely agree with you. My views on police are mostly based on first-person reports or bodycam footage of what detectives, highway patrol, etc. have encountered. I also have some personal experience with witnessing a violent arrest up close, and was incredibly grateful for the police in that instance. People who pitch hardcore police reform have absolutely no idea what the police deal with, and their childish demands to "abolish the police" are missing a ton of context about the depths of depravity and evil that exist within society. I don't think that necessarily factually disqualifies anything I said already, though. The police are a necessary branch of the state monopoly on violence, but right now in the U.S. I don't think the demographics and tendencies of the police force line up with our collective expectations for transparency, honesty, trust, and justice. There are too many opportunities for intimidation and corruption that are taken and defended. Edit: Also you're completely correct about one political party listening to and supporting the police.
        macintux 5y ago
        > … one political party listening to and supporting the police. Well, not the Capitol Police.
- quacked 5y ago
  The police job attracts most people who do not have a college degree, are white, and lean into conservative/justice-heavy politics. Many of those people are bullies. That doesn't mean anything about people that do not have a college degree, or white people, or conservative/justice-heavy politics, it just means something about the police job and the people who agree to take it. We're looking at probability of (white AND lower college education) given (bully AND police officer), not probability of (bully) given (white AND low college education). The closer you get down to beat-cop-that-interacts-with-citizens, the less likely you are to find a four-year degree or "conventionally liberal" beliefs. (Not that a college education or liberal beliefs confer any useful predictors about common sense, wisdom, ethical beliefs, or honesty.) This implies that anyone with a four-year degree and conventionally liberal beliefs is going to have a hard time understanding or influencing police officers by using any tactics that work on other liberal college graduates. I agree with you that there are bullies from all political persuasions and education levels, but a very specific type of aggressive personality self-selects into the police job at a higher rate than in other jobs that require a similar background. Additionally, even if 99% of police officers in the US weren't aggressive and weren't bullies, that still leaves 10,000 "bad cops". It doesn't take many "bad cops" to make people angry and uncomfortable with the police in general. In case my original message wasn't clear, I'm actually criticizing U.S. supporters of police reform for wanting police work to be perfect and ethical without actually volunteering to become police themselves. These (mostly left-leaners) entrust the enforcement of civil society to a group of people who mostly don't respect or agree with them, which is ineffective and hypocritical.
  - grasshopperpurp 5y ago
    Agree with a lot of your points, but I think you're asking for an unrealistic amount of self-sacrifice. Not to equate film to rl, but we're all familiar with Serpico, right? You think these power-hungry bullies are just going to let you infiltrate their gang and make changes for the greater good? Maybe you're talking about leadership/management positions? But, even then, you're talking about one of the stronger unions in country and a group of employees who will fight your attempts at progress. Again, I agree with just about everything else, and there isn't an easy solution, but I think your criticism is either unclear or misplaced.
- genericuser314 5y ago
  Based on political contributions, police officers have donated their money to Democrats and Republicans almost in equal proportion for quite awhile... until 2018, when they became overwhelmingly Republican. https://archive.md/bacrC#selection-1400.0-1404.0 https://archive.md/bacrC#selection-1400.0-1404.0
  - quacked 5y ago
    What about based on internal beliefs and voting patterns? A "police" administrator at the city level is liable to donate a lot more money than a rural patrolman.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  > I see bullies from all political persuasions Absolutely not in equal amounts. The far right loves to infiltrate police forces while the far left is often very untrusting of the police.
  - quacked 5y ago
    I think the commenter you're responding to was just mistaking my assertion that most bad cops match a particular demographic due to the type of person to become a cop for an assertion that you can tell someone will be a bully if you know what their demographics are.
fennecfoxen 5y ago
Of course you can't control them with laws. The prosecutors are their allies, the courts are their enablers, and Qualified Immunity is all but carte blanche to ignore laws.
- quacked 5y ago
  This is obvious to me, but it seems to be lost on many people who want to change how police work is done. It's like saying that chefs ought to be responsible for punishing each other when they spit in people's food.

sethammons 5y ago

> political persuasion and education level Sorry, I'm not following. My understanding is that the job attracts bullies and I see bullies from all political persuasions and all education levels.

macintux 5y ago
I think the recently-departed administration in the U.S. has done a good job of helping bullies self-select themselves into its party.
- quacked 5y ago
  I find that bullies can be found in equal proportions in both parties, but I do agree that the type of bully who is willing to walk the street with a gun in the name of justice does have a more welcoming home in one major party than the other.
  - aksss 5y ago
    You should talk to some homicide detectives, or even the people who deal with the day-to-day issues at the street level in downtown areas. The things they see on a regular basis are pretty mind-blowing, and not just per-incident, but cyclically and systemically. Their perspective on government policy and it’s effects are far different than ours by the nature of their jobs. That is a partial factor in how they vote and how they donate, particularly as of late. Their life experience is dealing with the disproportionately bad aspects of society, just like you probably have a disproportionately good existence. There are assumptions and biases that come from both these exposure models. And maybe it’s just a problem with their delivery, but if you hear a political party (unfortunately the loudmouth fringe more often than not) incessantly talking about how you suck, should be presumed to be an evil murderer, and advocate policies that you feel put your daily safety at further risk, you might rethink your donations and voting history as well. Not defending the bad cultures and actors whatsoever, but there’s more room for nuance in discussing the issues we have policing this large, individualistic, culturally heterogenous, heavily medicated and critically unmedicated country. The problem is a hard one, so easy simple answers should be viewed with skepticism. There is no “just do what Norway does” answer to the problem that can be made in good faith.
    - quacked 5y ago
      Oh, I completely agree with you. My views on police are mostly based on first-person reports or bodycam footage of what detectives, highway patrol, etc. have encountered. I also have some personal experience with witnessing a violent arrest up close, and was incredibly grateful for the police in that instance. People who pitch hardcore police reform have absolutely no idea what the police deal with, and their childish demands to "abolish the police" are missing a ton of context about the depths of depravity and evil that exist within society. I don't think that necessarily factually disqualifies anything I said already, though. The police are a necessary branch of the state monopoly on violence, but right now in the U.S. I don't think the demographics and tendencies of the police force line up with our collective expectations for transparency, honesty, trust, and justice. There are too many opportunities for intimidation and corruption that are taken and defended. Edit: Also you're completely correct about one political party listening to and supporting the police.
      - macintux 5y ago
        > … one political party listening to and supporting the police. Well, not the Capitol Police.
quacked 5y ago
The police job attracts most people who do not have a college degree, are white, and lean into conservative/justice-heavy politics. Many of those people are bullies. That doesn't mean anything about people that do not have a college degree, or white people, or conservative/justice-heavy politics, it just means something about the police job and the people who agree to take it. We're looking at probability of (white AND lower college education) given (bully AND police officer), not probability of (bully) given (white AND low college education). The closer you get down to beat-cop-that-interacts-with-citizens, the less likely you are to find a four-year degree or "conventionally liberal" beliefs. (Not that a college education or liberal beliefs confer any useful predictors about common sense, wisdom, ethical beliefs, or honesty.) This implies that anyone with a four-year degree and conventionally liberal beliefs is going to have a hard time understanding or influencing police officers by using any tactics that work on other liberal college graduates. I agree with you that there are bullies from all political persuasions and education levels, but a very specific type of aggressive personality self-selects into the police job at a higher rate than in other jobs that require a similar background. Additionally, even if 99% of police officers in the US weren't aggressive and weren't bullies, that still leaves 10,000 "bad cops". It doesn't take many "bad cops" to make people angry and uncomfortable with the police in general. In case my original message wasn't clear, I'm actually criticizing U.S. supporters of police reform for wanting police work to be perfect and ethical without actually volunteering to become police themselves. These (mostly left-leaners) entrust the enforcement of civil society to a group of people who mostly don't respect or agree with them, which is ineffective and hypocritical.
- grasshopperpurp 5y ago
  Agree with a lot of your points, but I think you're asking for an unrealistic amount of self-sacrifice. Not to equate film to rl, but we're all familiar with Serpico, right? You think these power-hungry bullies are just going to let you infiltrate their gang and make changes for the greater good? Maybe you're talking about leadership/management positions? But, even then, you're talking about one of the stronger unions in country and a group of employees who will fight your attempts at progress. Again, I agree with just about everything else, and there isn't an easy solution, but I think your criticism is either unclear or misplaced.
genericuser314 5y ago
Based on political contributions, police officers have donated their money to Democrats and Republicans almost in equal proportion for quite awhile... until 2018, when they became overwhelmingly Republican. https://archive.md/bacrC#selection-1400.0-1404.0 https://archive.md/bacrC#selection-1400.0-1404.0
- quacked 5y ago
  What about based on internal beliefs and voting patterns? A "police" administrator at the city level is liable to donate a lot more money than a rural patrolman.
goodpoint 5y ago
> I see bullies from all political persuasions Absolutely not in equal amounts. The far right loves to infiltrate police forces while the far left is often very untrusting of the police.
- quacked 5y ago
  I think the commenter you're responding to was just mistaking my assertion that most bad cops match a particular demographic due to the type of person to become a cop for an assertion that you can tell someone will be a bully if you know what their demographics are.

fennecfoxen 5y ago

Of course you can't control them with laws. The prosecutors are their allies, the courts are their enablers, and Qualified Immunity is all but carte blanche to ignore laws.

quacked 5y ago
This is obvious to me, but it seems to be lost on many people who want to change how police work is done. It's like saying that chefs ought to be responsible for punishing each other when they spit in people's food.