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Hmmmm... I was under the impression this was already the case. I remember reading about this a while ago when I was learning that they can force you to provide

Hmmmm... I was under the impression this was already the case. I remember reading about this a while ago when I was learning that they can force you to provide a fingerprint or face-scan.

ceejayoz 5y ago
Not having to reveal the passcode has been the rule for a while. Not being allowed to bring that refusal up as evidence of guilt on Fifth Amendment grounds during the trial is new. (And correct.)
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  Why? You have a right to carry a licensed gun to a scene where a murder happens, and scream insults at the the (soon to be) victim, but the prosecution is allowd in to mention that at trial.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Not having to reveal the passcode has been the rule for a while No, its not. It is an issue that is left open in US Supreme Court Fifth Amendment case law, and on which lower courts are split. > Not being allowed to bring that refusal up as evidence of guilt on Fifth Amendment grounds during the trial is new No, it is well-established that you can't raise use of Fifth Amendment self-incrimination rights to suggest guilt, so if not revealing passcodes is protected (which is the point in dispute that EFF is arguing to the Utah Supreme Court, and which the court immediately below agreed with), there is no dispute that refusal can't also be used to suggest guilt.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    You can't say the first is left open but the second is not. If "can I be forced to reveal the passcode" is undecided, "can refusing to do so imply guilt" depends on the resolution of the first.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > You can't say the first is left open but the second is not. I didn't. I said, in summary, that the first is left open, but that the first necessarily implies the second is not.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Which is messed up. That said, biometric unlock is identification, NOT authorization; if you have secrets on your phone, do not use biometrics. They are a low to medium security convenience. Second, of course, don't keep evidence of crimes on your phone. And final tip, on an iphone, hitting the lock button on the side five times rapidly will disable the biometric unlock until the passcode has been filled in. It also pops up with the option to call emergency services. Spamming the lock button is considered a panic button.
- devmor 5y ago
  >on an iphone, hitting the lock button on the side five times rapidly will disable the biometric unlock until the passcode has been filled in. I don't know what iPhone you have, but on mine, that brings up Apple Pay.
- cat199 5y ago
  > identification, NOT authorization if a user can't decouple the two and control them as distinct mechanisms, the user interaction serves as both and this distinction is irrelevant apologies but bringing this particular distinction up when has no bearing on the discussion is a pet peeve of mine
- tzs 5y ago
  > And final tip, on an iphone, hitting the lock button on the side five times rapidly will disable the biometric unlock until the passcode has been filled in. It also pops up with the option to call emergency services. Spamming the lock button is considered a panic button. This may vary from iPhone model to iPhone model, but you can also disable biometric unlock by holding down both the lock button and one of the volume buttons for several seconds. This approach is more discrete. The "spam the lock button" starts the emergency call countdown, which is accompanied by a loud alarm. The "hold lock and volume" method brings up the screen with the "slide to power off" button, the "medical ID" button, and the "emergency call" button, but does not immediately start the emergency call countdown. If you keep holding lock and volume it will start the emergency call countdown with a 5 second countdown and without an alarm. Edit: Here is Apple's documentation on this [1]. Some of this is configurable in the "Emergency SOS" settings. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/make-emergency-calls-iph3c99374c/15.0/ios/15.0 https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/make-emergency-calls-...

Hmmmm... I was under the impression this was already the case. I remember reading about this a while ago when I was learning that they can force you to provide a fingerprint or face-scan.

ceejayoz 5y ago

Not having to reveal the passcode has been the rule for a while. Not being allowed to bring that refusal up as evidence of guilt on Fifth Amendment grounds during the trial is new. (And correct.)

alisonkisk 5y ago
Why? You have a right to carry a licensed gun to a scene where a murder happens, and scream insults at the the (soon to be) victim, but the prosecution is allowd in to mention that at trial.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Not having to reveal the passcode has been the rule for a while No, its not. It is an issue that is left open in US Supreme Court Fifth Amendment case law, and on which lower courts are split. > Not being allowed to bring that refusal up as evidence of guilt on Fifth Amendment grounds during the trial is new No, it is well-established that you can't raise use of Fifth Amendment self-incrimination rights to suggest guilt, so if not revealing passcodes is protected (which is the point in dispute that EFF is arguing to the Utah Supreme Court, and which the court immediately below agreed with), there is no dispute that refusal can't also be used to suggest guilt.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  You can't say the first is left open but the second is not. If "can I be forced to reveal the passcode" is undecided, "can refusing to do so imply guilt" depends on the resolution of the first.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > You can't say the first is left open but the second is not. I didn't. I said, in summary, that the first is left open, but that the first necessarily implies the second is not.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Which is messed up. That said, biometric unlock is identification, NOT authorization; if you have secrets on your phone, do not use biometrics. They are a low to medium security convenience. Second, of course, don't keep evidence of crimes on your phone. And final tip, on an iphone, hitting the lock button on the side five times rapidly will disable the biometric unlock until the passcode has been filled in. It also pops up with the option to call emergency services. Spamming the lock button is considered a panic button.

devmor 5y ago
>on an iphone, hitting the lock button on the side five times rapidly will disable the biometric unlock until the passcode has been filled in. I don't know what iPhone you have, but on mine, that brings up Apple Pay.
cat199 5y ago
> identification, NOT authorization if a user can't decouple the two and control them as distinct mechanisms, the user interaction serves as both and this distinction is irrelevant apologies but bringing this particular distinction up when has no bearing on the discussion is a pet peeve of mine
tzs 5y ago
> And final tip, on an iphone, hitting the lock button on the side five times rapidly will disable the biometric unlock until the passcode has been filled in. It also pops up with the option to call emergency services. Spamming the lock button is considered a panic button. This may vary from iPhone model to iPhone model, but you can also disable biometric unlock by holding down both the lock button and one of the volume buttons for several seconds. This approach is more discrete. The "spam the lock button" starts the emergency call countdown, which is accompanied by a loud alarm. The "hold lock and volume" method brings up the screen with the "slide to power off" button, the "medical ID" button, and the "emergency call" button, but does not immediately start the emergency call countdown. If you keep holding lock and volume it will start the emergency call countdown with a 5 second countdown and without an alarm. Edit: Here is Apple's documentation on this [1]. Some of this is configurable in the "Emergency SOS" settings. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/make-emergency-calls-iph3c99374c/15.0/ios/15.0 https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/make-emergency-calls-...