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Your assertion was that it never comes from engineers. If you accept that was too strong and want to adjust your claim okay, but don't make as though that's wha

Your assertion was that it never comes from engineers. If you accept that was too strong and want to adjust your claim okay, but don't make as though that's what I was arguing about. > I don't, but I don't lionize Tesla or Elon either. If you don't address or retract any of the seemingly incorrect claims you made about Tesla, that suggests to me that you do.

h0l0cube 5y ago
> don't make as though that's what I was arguing about You were arguing that that engineers are often unscrupulous, I'd counter argue that actually their managers and the stakeholders are often unscrupulous and force them into complicity. My claim is that the responsibility ought to be at the top. Edit: But I think I agree that even if peers hold each others to account in engineering, it doesn't really matter. They don't hold the power to change institutions. I know there are Engineering societies... and I think in some domains you need a licence to practice that could be revoked, but this isn't true of your typical aerospace firmware coder. > seemingly incorrect claims you made about Tesla Such as? Regarding FSD, the deaths stats only break out numbers for autopilot. You might argue that the drivers are responsible for their actions if they leave their hands off the steering wheel, but encouraging any kind of overconfidence or complacency is putting other drivers and pedestrians at risk - all for marketing purposes. As for having a bone to pick, I provided 3 examples of well publicized engineering failures in recent years. You zeroed in on Tesla which is fair given the OP, but not evidence of me having a bone to pick, an axe to grind, or what have you :)
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  > You were arguing that that engineers are often unscrupulous Wrong. > Such as? I already pointed them out several posts earlier in the thread.
  - h0l0cube 5y ago
    > Wrong. Maybe you're thinking of black hats? But they aren't operating as engineers. Still, from you, no examples, no evidence, but intransigence. Such a mindset would not be becoming of a scrupulous engineer, so you might be right after all - or you're less qualified on the subject than even me

h0l0cube 5y ago

> don't make as though that's what I was arguing about You were arguing that that engineers are often unscrupulous, I'd counter argue that actually their managers and the stakeholders are often unscrupulous and force them into complicity. My claim is that the responsibility ought to be at the top. Edit: But I think I agree that even if peers hold each others to account in engineering, it doesn't really matter. They don't hold the power to change institutions. I know there are Engineering societies... and I think in some domains you need a licence to practice that could be revoked, but this isn't true of your typical aerospace firmware coder. > seemingly incorrect claims you made about Tesla Such as? Regarding FSD, the deaths stats only break out numbers for autopilot. You might argue that the drivers are responsible for their actions if they leave their hands off the steering wheel, but encouraging any kind of overconfidence or complacency is putting other drivers and pedestrians at risk - all for marketing purposes. As for having a bone to pick, I provided 3 examples of well publicized engineering failures in recent years. You zeroed in on Tesla which is fair given the OP, but not evidence of me having a bone to pick, an axe to grind, or what have you :)

throwawaylinux 5y ago
> You were arguing that that engineers are often unscrupulous Wrong. > Such as? I already pointed them out several posts earlier in the thread.
- h0l0cube 5y ago
  > Wrong. Maybe you're thinking of black hats? But they aren't operating as engineers. Still, from you, no examples, no evidence, but intransigence. Such a mindset would not be becoming of a scrupulous engineer, so you might be right after all - or you're less qualified on the subject than even me