7 ms·

It took Europe 20 years to come up with EUV

by madspindel 5y ago

HPsquared 5y ago
It won't take 20 years to catch up.
- rvba 5y ago
  Spies will steal the designs?
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  It probably will, actually
rowanG077 5y ago
This is a meaningless statement. It took humanity thousands of years to come up with calculus. Now we teach the basics to high schoolers.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > It took humanity thousands of years to come up with calculus. Depends on how you see it. During most of humanity's existence, we were hunters and gatherers, with simple and small societies - there wasn't much need for advanced math and there was not really a possibility for a society to feed a thinker. Only when complex societies like ancient Greece and Rome were possible thanks to early industrialized farming, there was a possibility for people to do nothing "productive" towards the society itself surviving but instead invest resources into advancing society.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    Ancient Greece was thousands of years ago. Some complex societies are even a bit older. For example the Assyrian empire started around 2600BCE, and I guess there are older ones still.
    - ido 5y ago
      Alexander the Great is roughly as distant from our time as the building of the pyramids were from his.
m0zg 5y ago
And thanks to all that effort the Chinese now likely have all the blueprints. The only reason why they still don't have EUV is because this stuff is difficult to bring up even if you have all the documentation - screw something up even a little, and it's not going to work. But it certainly isn't going to take them 20 years to replicate it.
- jillesvangurp 5y ago
  The nature of patents is that it is mostly public information anyway and free to use after the patents expire. That works both ways of course, the Chinese have some pretty fancy technology in other fields that manufacturers in the EU or US might benefit from. Of course with chips, patents and know how that e.g. Intel or ASML have are two things. Ultimately this is good as it drives companies to continue innovating. Intel's current problems are related to them forgetting to do that.
  - m0zg 5y ago
    Precisely. A billion ways to get things wrong, and if you get it wrong it doesn't work. And the info to get it to work is unlikely to be in the patents. You have to have folks who worked with this stuff before, which is difficult, but doable. And as far as "innovating" in this field, we're almost at the end of the run - there are, as far as I'm aware, no processes planned beyond 3nm, and even 3nm is astonomically complex and expensive.
  - 988747 5y ago
    >> patents and know how that e.g. Intel or ASML have are two things. Shouldn't that make the patent invalid? I thought the requirement is that the patent should give enough info so that "person skilled in the art" can reproduce the invention.
    - swiftcoder 5y ago
      "skilled in the art" is somewhat irrelevant if that skill takes a couple of decades and a $120 million machine to develop...
MangoCoffee 5y ago
>It took Europe 20 years to come up with EUV "The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has announced an agreement with ASM Lithography (Einhoven, Netherlands) that would allow the company to participate in the extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography development effort now underway in Livermore, Calif." https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ EUV is a joint research by US Dept of Energy and several US companies. ASML got invited to join the research based on conditions lay out by US Dept of Energy.

It took Europe 20 years to come up with EUV

HPsquared 5y ago

It won't take 20 years to catch up.

rvba 5y ago
Spies will steal the designs?
xadhominemx 5y ago
It probably will, actually

rowanG077 5y ago

This is a meaningless statement. It took humanity thousands of years to come up with calculus. Now we teach the basics to high schoolers.

mschuster91 5y ago
> It took humanity thousands of years to come up with calculus. Depends on how you see it. During most of humanity's existence, we were hunters and gatherers, with simple and small societies - there wasn't much need for advanced math and there was not really a possibility for a society to feed a thinker. Only when complex societies like ancient Greece and Rome were possible thanks to early industrialized farming, there was a possibility for people to do nothing "productive" towards the society itself surviving but instead invest resources into advancing society.
- adrianN 5y ago
  Ancient Greece was thousands of years ago. Some complex societies are even a bit older. For example the Assyrian empire started around 2600BCE, and I guess there are older ones still.
  - ido 5y ago
    Alexander the Great is roughly as distant from our time as the building of the pyramids were from his.

m0zg 5y ago

And thanks to all that effort the Chinese now likely have all the blueprints. The only reason why they still don't have EUV is because this stuff is difficult to bring up even if you have all the documentation - screw something up even a little, and it's not going to work. But it certainly isn't going to take them 20 years to replicate it.

jillesvangurp 5y ago
The nature of patents is that it is mostly public information anyway and free to use after the patents expire. That works both ways of course, the Chinese have some pretty fancy technology in other fields that manufacturers in the EU or US might benefit from. Of course with chips, patents and know how that e.g. Intel or ASML have are two things. Ultimately this is good as it drives companies to continue innovating. Intel's current problems are related to them forgetting to do that.
- m0zg 5y ago
  Precisely. A billion ways to get things wrong, and if you get it wrong it doesn't work. And the info to get it to work is unlikely to be in the patents. You have to have folks who worked with this stuff before, which is difficult, but doable. And as far as "innovating" in this field, we're almost at the end of the run - there are, as far as I'm aware, no processes planned beyond 3nm, and even 3nm is astonomically complex and expensive.
- 988747 5y ago
  >> patents and know how that e.g. Intel or ASML have are two things. Shouldn't that make the patent invalid? I thought the requirement is that the patent should give enough info so that "person skilled in the art" can reproduce the invention.
  - swiftcoder 5y ago
    "skilled in the art" is somewhat irrelevant if that skill takes a couple of decades and a $120 million machine to develop...

MangoCoffee 5y ago

>It took Europe 20 years to come up with EUV "The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has announced an agreement with ASM Lithography (Einhoven, Netherlands) that would allow the company to participate in the extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography development effort now underway in Livermore, Calif." https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ EUV is a joint research by US Dept of Energy and several US companies. ASML got invited to join the research based on conditions lay out by US Dept of Energy.