7 ms·

Online meetings are levelling the office playing field

44 points by edward 5y ago

nikkinana 5y ago
I love meeting with people from all over the world, can't wait for them to take all the jobs and turn them to shit like their country.
cruano 5y ago
> “The tech itself is not what makes it inclusive, or exclusive and discriminating. It’s how people use it.” So they disprove their own point by the end of the article...
- tchalla 5y ago
  What do you think the point of the article is? The title say that the playing field is levelling, not that it has levelled. It's not binary or a target - it is a situation which is happening. The article offers both for and against the situation being played out. There's no definite conclusion in the text of the article and no disproving of a certain point.
  - drewcoo 5y ago
    I, for one, thought the point was pro-business virtue signaling. The Guardian seems consistent.
mypastself 5y ago
If I’m understanding correctly, the playing field is “levelled” in favor of people who tend to be late for meetings because of poor time management. Additionally, “masculine hegemons” can no longer use their arm-waving skills to win arguments. Hard-hitting journalism from The Guardian, as usual.
- somebehemoth 5y ago
  I don't think you understand correctly.
- geofft 5y ago
  I'm not sure I see where the article talks about poor time management?
  - PicassoCTs 5y ago
    Thats a euphemism for not donating every waking hour to work and for example bringing your kids to school.
  - mypastself 5y ago
    That was my admittedly uncharitable interpretation of the article subject’s preference for online meetings. They reported missing a lot of in-person meetings because of parental responsibilities, and the article suggests they are therefore unfairly disadvantaged. If anything, it seems to me like they have a fairly reasonable employer and working environment.
    - watwut 5y ago
      Online makes it waay easier to manage parental responsibilities vs meetings. Mostly because in person variant os comparably absurdly wasteful. It don't block you only during meeting, but both before and after. Online also makes meetings more effective, people are less likely to go forever and waste everybody time. And, when they go forever, you use their empty blabbing for some chores. So, yeah, you loose disadvantage at no cost to actual work effectivity.
      - mypastself 5y ago
        Oh, I was in no way defending in-person meetings. I do take issue with the article’s implication that its subject’s perpetual tardiness (presumably tolerated by their employer and co-workers) is the result of discriminatory workplace environment.
imbnwa 5y ago
Some aspect of this may come off as offensive, but frankly there was a certain amount of sexualizing gaze I had to deal with from both sides of the aisle that made things like meetings rather unfocused, and I don't think that'd change if I moved jobs (btw I'm not interested in "playing the field" or some such). Being able to elect to only pass on my voice in meetings is so much more beneficial for clear, conducive discussion for everyone instead of having to negotiate the unspoken politics of desiring gazes when we're in a place of business. There are enough people think they absolutely have a right to let you know how interested they are, and frankly, one simply shouldn't have to negotiate that at work (and enough people demonstrate they don't realize how bad they are with implicit/explicit rejection; not to mention the side effects of other people picking up on this phenonmenon that creates visible, needless resentful behavior). The minute you speak up about this, everyone wants to act like its not happening or that its your problem somehow ("don't you like it? isn't it flattering?"). But this is exactly how harassment and escalations of such happen for anyone. There just isn't a good solution for "opting out" from this behavior in-office, so remote work has been a great boon in this direction in particular.
- Grakel 5y ago
  Think about the effect on your career of being ugly.
  - imbnwa 5y ago
    And that's kinda it, enough people don't realize how immature/unprofessional they can be, implicitly and explicitly, when physically co-located. You should be able to abstract from that in a place of business and maybe a culture of remote work makes that more possible than otherwise. One has all the time and space to impose their preferences outside of the workplace.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Both extremes can have it bad. A little compassion goes a long way.
- throwaway2331 5y ago
clarkevans 5y ago
There are many with serious medical issues that have blossomed with digital meetings. They can attend meetings without leaving their (home) office which is setup with the accommodations they need.
mattlondon 5y ago
It is unlevelling for me. I have one room where basically everything that my family does happens and it is the only place to put a desk. It is noisy. It is very distracting. I am physically "at home" so my family expect me to be able to help out and do things, but I am mentally trying to be "at work" so I end up doing a half-assed job of both. I can't move out of London so that I can afford a place with a dedicated study/office room because "hybrid working" means I still need to be within commuting distance (any property within commuting distance is £,£££,£££, even before covid). Hybrid working rules at my place mean I can only physically go to the office a couple of days a week (e.g. cannot do Mon to Fri, but have to go in on assigned days) It is professionally crippling, at least for me. Edit: comments about "just do a longer commute the days you do go in" are valid, but not applicable here: I have care commitments that can't be ignored while I am on a train.
- Consultant32452 5y ago
  Equity never means strictly bringing the lower end up to the top. It also means chopping the top down. You were the top. You could afford to live in a very expensive city and have proximity to good jobs and other nice things.
  - hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
    > It also means chopping the top down. The fact that you say this without at least the slightest hint of awareness of why many people now shudder at what cries for "equity" have morphed into highlights why the backlash against equity programs is growing. And I find this incredibly disappointing, because I do believe that equity programs that try to raise opportunity and standards for all is a good thing, but all too often I've seen it just morph into "Tall Poppy Syndrome".
    - Consultant32452 5y ago
      The only morphing was when "equality of opportunity" which is simultaneously nonsensical and undesirable morphed into "equality of outcome" (equity) which is simultaneously more coherent and depraved. Chopping off the top (unless you are a party member) was always part of it.
throwaway-38nmm 5y ago
I have ADD. The last 18 months have been incredibly difficult for me. During in-person meetings, I'm able to mostly focus on what's being said and participate as needed. In online meetings, I invariably zone out and miss everything. I don't doubt that online work has helped a lot of people participate, but as with all things it's an environment that will work better for some and worse for others. What we should have is both—companies and teams where the expectation is that you'll come to the office every day and meet in a conference room, and companies and teams where most meetings are done online.
- nomansland 5y ago
  I have ADHD as well as a few of my colleagues(we talk about it pretty openly, which is also great, but likely belongs on another thread). A lot of folks on the ADHD spectrum have chosen to RTO early in my group, due to the things you've mentioned. It's not just meetings. The ADHD people usually will report things like, it's easier to stay focused on code in the office, with few distractions. Though, tbh, the office right now for me is a dream - we're at voluntary RTO. There's 20% occupancy, it's very quiet, no home distractions, and sets the scene change my ADHD needs to remind my brain it's at work. I agree that there's so many different ways to work, that one modality is never going to make everyone happy.
- cauthon 5y ago
  > I have ADD. The last 18 months have been incredibly difficult for me. During in-person meetings, I'm able to mostly focus on what's being said and participate as needed. In online meetings, I invariably zone out and miss everything. Are you my boss? Seriously though, I’d be working 100% from my home if my boss could parse anything from video meetings. But he can’t, so I’m in once a week for all our project meetings. I don’t actually mind it most of the time, I like the break from home and being able to whiteboard. I agree that fully remote work isn’t the universally level playing field so many are making it out to be.
wdb 5y ago
Wouldn't the same be valid for men that have kids?
nonameiguess 5y ago
Not just women. They've been a big boon for anyone with certain types of physical disabilities. I have several levels of my spine surgically fused and can't really sit or stand or be still for too long, because my hips lock up and my back seizes on the side where they took the bone graft and pulls me to the left and starts throbbing. That had the effect of making 30 min+ meetings somewhat awkward because I was constantly standing up and walking around. There was also the fact that I need frequent breaks to lay down and decompress a bit through the day. No longer an issue at all now that I don't have to be in a job where someone expects me to be in one position in one place in one room for hours at a time to get work done. Going for a walk or laying in bed for a meeting is no problem. It is long past time we actually used the remote communication ability our handheld networking and computing devices have enabled and quit pretending it's still 1960. If ISIS can manage war campaigns over WhatsApp, I think your business can figure out a way to make it work.
- flavius29663 5y ago
  I am pretty sure you need more creativity and ideas to make a modern business successful than to blow up things and shoot people.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    War is more than pulling a trigger. It’s leadership, logistics, planning, education, communication… all global problem solving with deadly consequences. There is a reason so many vets get into business or consulting.
paperoli 5y ago
I realise this is about meetings but working from home is terrible for me. Working from home is like how I imagine most people would feel sleeping in the office. I just cant really do it at all. I've already got a final warning work, and it still feels impossible to do anything from at home. It's effected my self esteem and really damaged my career. I think I'll try to get an ADHD diagnosis and then I'll be considered disabled and will maybe get some help and legal protection.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tootie 5y ago
The pandemic has made it blindingly obvious that this has been true for at least ten years. The same corporate innovation that led to offshoring set the stage for making remote work feasible. And it's not just zoom. In fact the biggest driver is Slack/Teams and the like. Everyone has an equal voice on slack. Interruption is impossible. Thoughts can be curated, recorded and edited in real time. And it can all be asynchronous.

44 points by edward 5y ago

I love meeting with people from all over the world, can't wait for them to take all the jobs and turn them to shit like their country.

cruano 5y ago

> “The tech itself is not what makes it inclusive, or exclusive and discriminating. It’s how people use it.” So they disprove their own point by the end of the article...

tchalla 5y ago
What do you think the point of the article is? The title say that the playing field is levelling, not that it has levelled. It's not binary or a target - it is a situation which is happening. The article offers both for and against the situation being played out. There's no definite conclusion in the text of the article and no disproving of a certain point.
- drewcoo 5y ago
  I, for one, thought the point was pro-business virtue signaling. The Guardian seems consistent.

mypastself 5y ago

If I’m understanding correctly, the playing field is “levelled” in favor of people who tend to be late for meetings because of poor time management. Additionally, “masculine hegemons” can no longer use their arm-waving skills to win arguments. Hard-hitting journalism from The Guardian, as usual.

somebehemoth 5y ago
I don't think you understand correctly.
geofft 5y ago
I'm not sure I see where the article talks about poor time management?
- PicassoCTs 5y ago
  Thats a euphemism for not donating every waking hour to work and for example bringing your kids to school.
- mypastself 5y ago
  That was my admittedly uncharitable interpretation of the article subject’s preference for online meetings. They reported missing a lot of in-person meetings because of parental responsibilities, and the article suggests they are therefore unfairly disadvantaged. If anything, it seems to me like they have a fairly reasonable employer and working environment.
  - watwut 5y ago
    Online makes it waay easier to manage parental responsibilities vs meetings. Mostly because in person variant os comparably absurdly wasteful. It don't block you only during meeting, but both before and after. Online also makes meetings more effective, people are less likely to go forever and waste everybody time. And, when they go forever, you use their empty blabbing for some chores. So, yeah, you loose disadvantage at no cost to actual work effectivity.
    - mypastself 5y ago
      Oh, I was in no way defending in-person meetings. I do take issue with the article’s implication that its subject’s perpetual tardiness (presumably tolerated by their employer and co-workers) is the result of discriminatory workplace environment.

imbnwa 5y ago

Some aspect of this may come off as offensive, but frankly there was a certain amount of sexualizing gaze I had to deal with from both sides of the aisle that made things like meetings rather unfocused, and I don't think that'd change if I moved jobs (btw I'm not interested in "playing the field" or some such). Being able to elect to only pass on my voice in meetings is so much more beneficial for clear, conducive discussion for everyone instead of having to negotiate the unspoken politics of desiring gazes when we're in a place of business. There are enough people think they absolutely have a right to let you know how interested they are, and frankly, one simply shouldn't have to negotiate that at work (and enough people demonstrate they don't realize how bad they are with implicit/explicit rejection; not to mention the side effects of other people picking up on this phenonmenon that creates visible, needless resentful behavior). The minute you speak up about this, everyone wants to act like its not happening or that its your problem somehow ("don't you like it? isn't it flattering?"). But this is exactly how harassment and escalations of such happen for anyone. There just isn't a good solution for "opting out" from this behavior in-office, so remote work has been a great boon in this direction in particular.

Grakel 5y ago
Think about the effect on your career of being ugly.
- imbnwa 5y ago
  And that's kinda it, enough people don't realize how immature/unprofessional they can be, implicitly and explicitly, when physically co-located. You should be able to abstract from that in a place of business and maybe a culture of remote work makes that more possible than otherwise. One has all the time and space to impose their preferences outside of the workplace.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Both extremes can have it bad. A little compassion goes a long way.
throwaway2331 5y ago

clarkevans 5y ago

There are many with serious medical issues that have blossomed with digital meetings. They can attend meetings without leaving their (home) office which is setup with the accommodations they need.

mattlondon 5y ago

It is unlevelling for me. I have one room where basically everything that my family does happens and it is the only place to put a desk. It is noisy. It is very distracting. I am physically "at home" so my family expect me to be able to help out and do things, but I am mentally trying to be "at work" so I end up doing a half-assed job of both. I can't move out of London so that I can afford a place with a dedicated study/office room because "hybrid working" means I still need to be within commuting distance (any property within commuting distance is £,£££,£££, even before covid). Hybrid working rules at my place mean I can only physically go to the office a couple of days a week (e.g. cannot do Mon to Fri, but have to go in on assigned days) It is professionally crippling, at least for me. Edit: comments about "just do a longer commute the days you do go in" are valid, but not applicable here: I have care commitments that can't be ignored while I am on a train.

Consultant32452 5y ago
Equity never means strictly bringing the lower end up to the top. It also means chopping the top down. You were the top. You could afford to live in a very expensive city and have proximity to good jobs and other nice things.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  > It also means chopping the top down. The fact that you say this without at least the slightest hint of awareness of why many people now shudder at what cries for "equity" have morphed into highlights why the backlash against equity programs is growing. And I find this incredibly disappointing, because I do believe that equity programs that try to raise opportunity and standards for all is a good thing, but all too often I've seen it just morph into "Tall Poppy Syndrome".
  - Consultant32452 5y ago
    The only morphing was when "equality of opportunity" which is simultaneously nonsensical and undesirable morphed into "equality of outcome" (equity) which is simultaneously more coherent and depraved. Chopping off the top (unless you are a party member) was always part of it.

throwaway-38nmm 5y ago

I have ADD. The last 18 months have been incredibly difficult for me. During in-person meetings, I'm able to mostly focus on what's being said and participate as needed. In online meetings, I invariably zone out and miss everything. I don't doubt that online work has helped a lot of people participate, but as with all things it's an environment that will work better for some and worse for others. What we should have is both—companies and teams where the expectation is that you'll come to the office every day and meet in a conference room, and companies and teams where most meetings are done online.

nomansland 5y ago
I have ADHD as well as a few of my colleagues(we talk about it pretty openly, which is also great, but likely belongs on another thread). A lot of folks on the ADHD spectrum have chosen to RTO early in my group, due to the things you've mentioned. It's not just meetings. The ADHD people usually will report things like, it's easier to stay focused on code in the office, with few distractions. Though, tbh, the office right now for me is a dream - we're at voluntary RTO. There's 20% occupancy, it's very quiet, no home distractions, and sets the scene change my ADHD needs to remind my brain it's at work. I agree that there's so many different ways to work, that one modality is never going to make everyone happy.
cauthon 5y ago
> I have ADD. The last 18 months have been incredibly difficult for me. During in-person meetings, I'm able to mostly focus on what's being said and participate as needed. In online meetings, I invariably zone out and miss everything. Are you my boss? Seriously though, I’d be working 100% from my home if my boss could parse anything from video meetings. But he can’t, so I’m in once a week for all our project meetings. I don’t actually mind it most of the time, I like the break from home and being able to whiteboard. I agree that fully remote work isn’t the universally level playing field so many are making it out to be.

wdb 5y ago

Wouldn't the same be valid for men that have kids?

nonameiguess 5y ago

Not just women. They've been a big boon for anyone with certain types of physical disabilities. I have several levels of my spine surgically fused and can't really sit or stand or be still for too long, because my hips lock up and my back seizes on the side where they took the bone graft and pulls me to the left and starts throbbing. That had the effect of making 30 min+ meetings somewhat awkward because I was constantly standing up and walking around. There was also the fact that I need frequent breaks to lay down and decompress a bit through the day. No longer an issue at all now that I don't have to be in a job where someone expects me to be in one position in one place in one room for hours at a time to get work done. Going for a walk or laying in bed for a meeting is no problem. It is long past time we actually used the remote communication ability our handheld networking and computing devices have enabled and quit pretending it's still 1960. If ISIS can manage war campaigns over WhatsApp, I think your business can figure out a way to make it work.

flavius29663 5y ago
I am pretty sure you need more creativity and ideas to make a modern business successful than to blow up things and shoot people.
- newsclues 5y ago
  War is more than pulling a trigger. It’s leadership, logistics, planning, education, communication… all global problem solving with deadly consequences. There is a reason so many vets get into business or consulting.

paperoli 5y ago

I realise this is about meetings but working from home is terrible for me. Working from home is like how I imagine most people would feel sleeping in the office. I just cant really do it at all. I've already got a final warning work, and it still feels impossible to do anything from at home. It's effected my self esteem and really damaged my career. I think I'll try to get an ADHD diagnosis and then I'll be considered disabled and will maybe get some help and legal protection.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tootie 5y ago

The pandemic has made it blindingly obvious that this has been true for at least ten years. The same corporate innovation that led to offshoring set the stage for making remote work feasible. And it's not just zoom. In fact the biggest driver is Slack/Teams and the like. Everyone has an equal voice on slack. Interruption is impossible. Thoughts can be curated, recorded and edited in real time. And it can all be asynchronous.