5 ms·

Most Russians I know would agree that there's something along those lines in the Russian psyche, although I'm not sure "bleakness" is the right word. Fatalism,

Most Russians I know would agree that there's something along those lines in the Russian psyche, although I'm not sure "bleakness" is the right word. Fatalism, perhaps?

FpUser 5y ago
I am Russian. Was born and lived in USSR until I was 30. As you might guess I knew a boatloads of them and I think most of them including yours truly would call a BS on that. Reading Dostoyevsky does not make one know Russians.
- ithkuil 5y ago
  Nor does being Russian make one know Russians. It helps though
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - culebron21 5y ago
    If you open YouTube in Incognito mode from Russia, with most watched stuff, you'll see no Tarkovsky, Dostoyevksy or other gloomy movies. Instead, half of the preview images are comedy movies and shows, and other half is boxing, cars, history. It would be really hard to find the psyche you're talking about in everyday artistic content. As for high art, like Tarkovksy, I saw the same tragic content in arthouse movies from Westrn Europe.
    - marginalia_nu 5y ago
      A lot of the western idea of Russian seriousness is probably from the difference in cultural attitudes toward smiling. Westerners look at pictures of non-smiling Russians and think they are angry or serious or sad. There is a picture floating around with three astronauts, an American, a Russian, and an Italian: Big Smile, Soul Piercing Death Stare, Big Smile. If you are in any way familiar with russians, you understand why, but a lot of westerners just aren't, and completely misread it.
      - FpUser 5y ago
        >"Westerners look at pictures of non-smiling Russians and think they are angry or serious or sad." Please stop. If you ever bothered to look at regular people walking on the street you would find exactly the same proportion of smiling or neutral (mostly neutral) faces. When I first came to Toronto I actually paid attention just to that expecting to see this myth - bunch of people walking on the street and smiling. Did not happen. And if you ever bothered to punch "Russian astronauts group" into Google search you will find plenty of smiling faces except when those were taken during some highly official situation. So yes I am "in any way familiar with Russians" and from that perspective you are at least simply misinformed or a victim of how Western (totally unbiased and objective of course) media represents Russian.
        ithkuil 5y ago
        The number of Italians emphatically gesticulating with their hands is very likely 0 if you take a snapshot of people walking on the streets of some big city in an average morning. Yet, that stereotype is not entirely devoid of information.
        marginalia_nu 5y ago
        This is not just speculation but personal observation. I am in the position of knowing several russians and americans (while living in nether country), and I do think this is a pretty pronounced difference. It's not people in the street perhaps that is the big contrast, but in social interaction. The americans pretty much always smile when they greet you regardless of whether you've met, and do the whole fake "how are you" routine. I've never encountered russians doing that. It's not that they never smile, but that the reasons for smiling aren't quite the same. It may be a generational thing as well. Russia is a lot less isolated from the west today, so these cultural clashes may be fading away.
        dang 5y ago
        Hey, can you please follow the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)? I appreciate your points and the perspective you're representing. But we need you to do it without name-calling and personal attacks. I know that can be tough when sensitive places are being prodded, but I don't think anyone is being nasty here. Also, as a bonus, it will make your comments more persuasive. (One irony, btw, of threads where people argue about national characteristics is that often the arguments turn out to be between people of that background themselves, typically without realizing it. Of course that doesn't give anyone a pass to break the rules, but it does change the frame.)
- TruthWillHurt 5y ago
  You sound pretty bleak to me..
  - dang 5y ago
    I get the temptation to make a joke like that but please don't cross into personal attack.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    Well it is cloudy outside today.
beaconstudios 5y ago
the idea that it's inherent to the Russian psyche is a kind of essentialism, no? I would think that if it exists at all, it would be cultural or environmental.
- wyager 5y ago
  > I would think that if it exists at all, it would be cultural or environmental. Russia has both a culture and an environment.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    then it's not part of the "Russian psyche", is it? It's just that Russia can just suck.
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      It sounds like you consider the land to be separate and apart from the country or nation. Do words like родина or отечество have a connotation of an intimate relationship between the people and the land, though? In English, one synonym for indigenous is autochthonous, supposed to stem from Greek for literally "people arising out of the earth".
lalalandland 5y ago
Leviatan is a great movie and show the Russian psyche. «In a Russian coastal town, Kolya is forced to fight the corrupt mayor when he is told that his house will be demolished. He recruits a lawyer friend to help, but the man's arrival brings further misfortune for Kolya and his family.» https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2802154/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2802154/
- FpUser 5y ago
  The only thing it shows is what that particular author wanted to show. Judging national character by a single movie is not the best approach I would say. When you live in a country for extended period of time and deal with the locals every day on different levels maybe by then you will have grasped it.

Most Russians I know would agree that there's something along those lines in the Russian psyche, although I'm not sure "bleakness" is the right word. Fatalism, perhaps?

FpUser 5y ago

I am Russian. Was born and lived in USSR until I was 30. As you might guess I knew a boatloads of them and I think most of them including yours truly would call a BS on that. Reading Dostoyevsky does not make one know Russians.

ithkuil 5y ago
Nor does being Russian make one know Russians. It helps though
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- culebron21 5y ago
  If you open YouTube in Incognito mode from Russia, with most watched stuff, you'll see no Tarkovsky, Dostoyevksy or other gloomy movies. Instead, half of the preview images are comedy movies and shows, and other half is boxing, cars, history. It would be really hard to find the psyche you're talking about in everyday artistic content. As for high art, like Tarkovksy, I saw the same tragic content in arthouse movies from Westrn Europe.
  - marginalia_nu 5y ago
    A lot of the western idea of Russian seriousness is probably from the difference in cultural attitudes toward smiling. Westerners look at pictures of non-smiling Russians and think they are angry or serious or sad. There is a picture floating around with three astronauts, an American, a Russian, and an Italian: Big Smile, Soul Piercing Death Stare, Big Smile. If you are in any way familiar with russians, you understand why, but a lot of westerners just aren't, and completely misread it.
    - FpUser 5y ago
      >"Westerners look at pictures of non-smiling Russians and think they are angry or serious or sad." Please stop. If you ever bothered to look at regular people walking on the street you would find exactly the same proportion of smiling or neutral (mostly neutral) faces. When I first came to Toronto I actually paid attention just to that expecting to see this myth - bunch of people walking on the street and smiling. Did not happen. And if you ever bothered to punch "Russian astronauts group" into Google search you will find plenty of smiling faces except when those were taken during some highly official situation. So yes I am "in any way familiar with Russians" and from that perspective you are at least simply misinformed or a victim of how Western (totally unbiased and objective of course) media represents Russian.
      - ithkuil 5y ago
        The number of Italians emphatically gesticulating with their hands is very likely 0 if you take a snapshot of people walking on the streets of some big city in an average morning. Yet, that stereotype is not entirely devoid of information.
      - marginalia_nu 5y ago
        This is not just speculation but personal observation. I am in the position of knowing several russians and americans (while living in nether country), and I do think this is a pretty pronounced difference. It's not people in the street perhaps that is the big contrast, but in social interaction. The americans pretty much always smile when they greet you regardless of whether you've met, and do the whole fake "how are you" routine. I've never encountered russians doing that. It's not that they never smile, but that the reasons for smiling aren't quite the same. It may be a generational thing as well. Russia is a lot less isolated from the west today, so these cultural clashes may be fading away.
      - dang 5y ago
        Hey, can you please follow the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)? I appreciate your points and the perspective you're representing. But we need you to do it without name-calling and personal attacks. I know that can be tough when sensitive places are being prodded, but I don't think anyone is being nasty here. Also, as a bonus, it will make your comments more persuasive. (One irony, btw, of threads where people argue about national characteristics is that often the arguments turn out to be between people of that background themselves, typically without realizing it. Of course that doesn't give anyone a pass to break the rules, but it does change the frame.)
TruthWillHurt 5y ago
You sound pretty bleak to me..
- dang 5y ago
  I get the temptation to make a joke like that but please don't cross into personal attack.
- FpUser 5y ago
  Well it is cloudy outside today.

beaconstudios 5y ago

the idea that it's inherent to the Russian psyche is a kind of essentialism, no? I would think that if it exists at all, it would be cultural or environmental.

wyager 5y ago
> I would think that if it exists at all, it would be cultural or environmental. Russia has both a culture and an environment.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  then it's not part of the "Russian psyche", is it? It's just that Russia can just suck.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    It sounds like you consider the land to be separate and apart from the country or nation. Do words like родина or отечество have a connotation of an intimate relationship between the people and the land, though? In English, one synonym for indigenous is autochthonous, supposed to stem from Greek for literally "people arising out of the earth".

lalalandland 5y ago

Leviatan is a great movie and show the Russian psyche. «In a Russian coastal town, Kolya is forced to fight the corrupt mayor when he is told that his house will be demolished. He recruits a lawyer friend to help, but the man's arrival brings further misfortune for Kolya and his family.» https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2802154/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2802154/

FpUser 5y ago
The only thing it shows is what that particular author wanted to show. Judging national character by a single movie is not the best approach I would say. When you live in a country for extended period of time and deal with the locals every day on different levels maybe by then you will have grasped it.