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> It's the cost for the channel. Except it's not. People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores. Epic demonstrated unequivocally they could g

> It's the cost for the channel. Except it's not. People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores. Epic demonstrated unequivocally they could get installs without Google involved as an intermediary. The app store value at this point is singularly it their platform-specific monopolies, and the fact that you have no choice but to play ball to do business on mobile. > The real world equivalent is supermarkets It's nothing like that. I have multiple supermarket chains I can go to - I have only Apple and Google when dealing with mobile. Customers can choose either Apple or Google, but most businesses are stuck doing business with both. Not even Microsoft screwed over both sides like this. At this point, Google and Apple have done far more harm to both customers and businesses than Microsoft ever had. It's beyond frustrating.

threeseed 5y ago
> People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores Uber would never have existed without the App Store. > It's nothing like that It's exactly like that. That's where the business model comes from. It's a digital representation of the way physical stores interact with OEMs.
- RNCTX 5y ago
  > It's exactly like that. It's not exactly like that. Kroger and Safeway cannot prevent potato chips from being sold outside of Kroger and Safeway. That's the whole point of the conversation here, don't know how you're missing it. Apple and Google are the textbook definitions of illegal monopolies, Kroger and Safeway are not.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  > Uber would never have existed without the App Store. Why not? Because of Apple's monopoly on app installation on iOS?
- tomnipotent 5y ago
  > Uber would never have existed without the App Store. Maybe not within smart phones, but the app store has nothing to do with the success of Uber aside from forced inclusion in the transaction. Believe it or not, software went decades being successfully purchased and installed by customers before app stores came along. Even on the Blackberry.
metagame 5y ago
That's not actually the truth. You can go to F-Droid, or Cydia, Amazon or one of the dozens of SEA app stores that exist. You have plenty of options. Your argument is basically that Wal-Mart is everywhere, so Wal-Mart should be forced to serve you on your terms.
- saurik 5y ago
  Epic is suing Google over direct and considered anti-competitive action preventing alternative stores from taking hold, and they might have a case. https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/19/22632804/epic-google-lawsuit-unredacted-complaint-antitrust https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/19/22632804/epic-google-laws... Meanwhile, you reference Cydia (my alternative to the App Store), but I am myself suing Apple for over their efforts to lock us out competing on iOS. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/10/cydia-apple-lawsuit/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/10/cydia-a... https://cache.saurik.com/lawsuit/complaint.pdf https://cache.saurik.com/lawsuit/complaint.pdf
  - megablast 5y ago
    Epic lost their lawsuit completely against Apple.
  - sundvor 5y ago
    I used Cydia many a year ago (in 2009) when I had the iPhone 3GS. If I recall correctly, the root I had to apply to be able to get it installed also allowed me to get your backgrounder plus sbsettings mods - thus getting real multitasking working! It made my experience of owning my first (and last) iPhone so much better - thanks very much for that, always a fan. Iirc, I was also able to buy one or two apps there, but my memory may be hazy. I hope you're successful with your Apple lawsuit.
  - metagame 5y ago
    I know Cydia's your thing (I'd recognize your username anywhere) and I have an infinite amount of respect for you because of it, but I think the status quo is probably fine. iOS is a minority of the market and "Do you know how to jailbreak your cell phone?" serves as a decent deterrent to stop clueless people from butchering themselves with too much freedom. It sounds really lame to say, but it feels like what you're suggesting is the exact opposite of what the market wants. People want a device they can give to their kid without worrying that they'll mess it up. And I don't think this is an issue where any side actually cares about freedom; you allow proprietary software on Cydia, which sort of kills the user freedom argument, but even then, people would still be free to just buy a phone that supports them using their phone in a way they want to.
sksksk 5y ago
Uber, Netflix and Epic may not need the channel. But Apple/Google are betting that for the long tail of developers, the benefits of the App stores outweigh the costs. Personally, I am far more likely to try out a subscription if I can do it through the app store, as I don't have to hand over my credit card details, and I know I'll be able to easily cancel.

threeseed 5y ago

> People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores Uber would never have existed without the App Store. > It's nothing like that It's exactly like that. That's where the business model comes from. It's a digital representation of the way physical stores interact with OEMs.

RNCTX 5y ago
> It's exactly like that. It's not exactly like that. Kroger and Safeway cannot prevent potato chips from being sold outside of Kroger and Safeway. That's the whole point of the conversation here, don't know how you're missing it. Apple and Google are the textbook definitions of illegal monopolies, Kroger and Safeway are not.
alisonkisk 5y ago
> Uber would never have existed without the App Store. Why not? Because of Apple's monopoly on app installation on iOS?
tomnipotent 5y ago
> Uber would never have existed without the App Store. Maybe not within smart phones, but the app store has nothing to do with the success of Uber aside from forced inclusion in the transaction. Believe it or not, software went decades being successfully purchased and installed by customers before app stores came along. Even on the Blackberry.

metagame 5y ago

That's not actually the truth. You can go to F-Droid, or Cydia, Amazon or one of the dozens of SEA app stores that exist. You have plenty of options. Your argument is basically that Wal-Mart is everywhere, so Wal-Mart should be forced to serve you on your terms.

saurik 5y ago
Epic is suing Google over direct and considered anti-competitive action preventing alternative stores from taking hold, and they might have a case. https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/19/22632804/epic-google-lawsuit-unredacted-complaint-antitrust https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/19/22632804/epic-google-laws... Meanwhile, you reference Cydia (my alternative to the App Store), but I am myself suing Apple for over their efforts to lock us out competing on iOS. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/10/cydia-apple-lawsuit/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/10/cydia-a... https://cache.saurik.com/lawsuit/complaint.pdf https://cache.saurik.com/lawsuit/complaint.pdf
- megablast 5y ago
  Epic lost their lawsuit completely against Apple.
- sundvor 5y ago
  I used Cydia many a year ago (in 2009) when I had the iPhone 3GS. If I recall correctly, the root I had to apply to be able to get it installed also allowed me to get your backgrounder plus sbsettings mods - thus getting real multitasking working! It made my experience of owning my first (and last) iPhone so much better - thanks very much for that, always a fan. Iirc, I was also able to buy one or two apps there, but my memory may be hazy. I hope you're successful with your Apple lawsuit.
- metagame 5y ago
  I know Cydia's your thing (I'd recognize your username anywhere) and I have an infinite amount of respect for you because of it, but I think the status quo is probably fine. iOS is a minority of the market and "Do you know how to jailbreak your cell phone?" serves as a decent deterrent to stop clueless people from butchering themselves with too much freedom. It sounds really lame to say, but it feels like what you're suggesting is the exact opposite of what the market wants. People want a device they can give to their kid without worrying that they'll mess it up. And I don't think this is an issue where any side actually cares about freedom; you allow proprietary software on Cydia, which sort of kills the user freedom argument, but even then, people would still be free to just buy a phone that supports them using their phone in a way they want to.

sksksk 5y ago

Uber, Netflix and Epic may not need the channel. But Apple/Google are betting that for the long tail of developers, the benefits of the App stores outweigh the costs. Personally, I am far more likely to try out a subscription if I can do it through the app store, as I don't have to hand over my credit card details, and I know I'll be able to easily cancel.