14 ms·

Chicago grapples with police vaccine revolt

23 points by version_five 5y ago

EastOfTruth 5y ago
Maybe they should stop wearing bullet-proof vests, also...
- short12 5y ago
  They should stop wearing bullet proof vests and stop pretending they are in a warzone. Because copping isnt that dangerous
  - EastOfTruth 5y ago
    In some countries, cops don't even carry guns on a daily basis
    - sterlind 5y ago
      in those countries, nobody has guns - or at least, very few do. the genie's out of the bottle. the people you're policing have guns, so you need guns. the best you can do is to end qualified immunity, mandate always-on bodycams, and hold police accountable for their actions.
      - EastOfTruth 5y ago
        Cops in the US kill a lot more citizens then citizens kill cops ... (talking strictly about gun fire victims) https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings
  - bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
    Covid was the number one killer of police this year and last, so if they had to pick between vaccinations and bullet proof vests…
killingtime74 5y ago
Reminds me of air traffic controller strike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Con.... If anyone think they are not replaceable they are in for a rude shock. City can easily hire private security/bring in the guard/hire new officers/reassign officers in desk jobs.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  Except that police union contracts tend to be somewhat more constraining than the ATC contract, and municipalities don't have the power of the federal executive branch to back them up for capriciously terminating employees.
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure you're overestimating just how many people are going to be eager to step into the line of fire in violent crime-ridden Chicago.
  - short12 5y ago
    All of the leo deaths in Chicago for 2020 were covid Any cop quiting because they don't want to protect others is a cop that should find a new line of work
    - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
      > All of the leo deaths in Chicago for 2020 were covid And? This does not mean that being in law enforcement in Chicago is a risk-free, attractive proposition, even to those who are vaccinated. > Any cop quiting because they don't want to protect others is a cop that should find a new line of work That's a fair argument but it doesn't change the reality that Chicago is very unlikely to be able to easily replace the officers it terminates.
    - aorth 5y ago
      Article says: > Last year, 374 officers died - 245 of them due to Covid-19, more than any other cause combined. But yes it's very high!
jakelazaroff 5y ago
If you’re not willing to put the safety of the civilians you serve above your own comfort, maybe you shouldn’t be a cop?
- walterbell 5y ago
  If you've kept the public safe for months before the existence of non-sterilizing vaccines, were infected and recovered from Covid while protecting said public, have long-lasting nasal immunity that exceeds the protection (note: not immunity) of intramuscular vaccines and blood/serum antibodies, perhaps you understand the meaning of "Put on your oxygen mask before trying to help others". From the CDC website, updated on October 15, https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated-guidance.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vac... > Based on evolving evidence, CDC recommends fully vaccinated people get tested 5-7 days after close contact with a person with suspected or confirmed COVID i.e. vaccination does not prevent infection or transmission. Those (including cops) who have recovered from Covid are statistically immune from infection and thus transmission. This is borne out by UK surveillance data of 5 million people who previously tested positive for Covid.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    > non-sterilizing vaccines What does "sterilizing vaccine" mean? It triggers my FUD alarm and makes me think you're an anti-vaxxer, > were infected and recovered You think this 1/3rd of the police that refuses to state their vaccination status already had COVID? Where's your evidence? The article says nothing about this, and we know some cops have not had COVID and refuse the vaccination. > vaccination does not prevent infection or transmission I don't know of any vaccination which is 100% effective and which can prevent transmission. Your statement again sounds like anti-vaxxer FUD. > Those (including cops) who have recovered from Covid are statistically immune Your "statistically immune" is seems like anti-vaxxer FUD obscuring how having COVID "does not prevent infection or transmission". Eg https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfe... points out "Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare . " Those who have been vaccinated are also "statistically immune", and through a lower risk route.
quantified 5y ago
Police usually resist following orders unless they are orders to increase the activity rate and level of violence. Worth keeping tabs on.
GaryTang 5y ago
Wasn’t Chicago screaming to defund the police last year anyway? Seattle fired those that wouldn’t comply. I expect Chicago will follow suit.
- nielsbot 5y ago
  Who?
  - eesmith 5y ago
    Definitely not the mayor. From the other day, at https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2021/10/20/22737171/defund-police-lori-lightfoot-cpd-police-graduation-city-budget-vaccine-mandate https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2021/10/20/22737171/d... > Mayor Lori Lightfoot said Wednesday she will “never yield” to the voices who want to defund the police because the Chicagoans who make up what Police Supt. David Brown calls the “silent majority” overwhelmingly support the police.
credit_guy 5y ago
That’s an easy one: just play the stare-down game till the end. The day after the deadline it will turn out that only 0.5% of the cops are unvaccinated. Happened everywhere.
gremloni 5y ago
Good. It’s not like cops are hard to find. It’s basically an unskilled position with excellent benefits. It’s not even particularly dangerous unless you’re in very, very specific neighborhoods.
throwawaysea 5y ago
I am very pro vaccine but absolutely against mandates. Bodily autonomy is a fundamental civil liberty and constitutional right (as the ACLU previously asserted). Discrimination based on medical or health status is unacceptable. It is also illogical to institute such a mandate: COVID-19 has a very low IFR, and vaccines aren’t perfect. When comparing the risks with and without vaccination, we are talking about two low probability but nonzero risks. If people are scared, they need to take measures to protect or quarantine themselves, not demand that everyone else undergo a medical procedure against their will. Lastly, it is dangerous for cities like Chicago and Seattle, who are grappling with surging crime and a shortage of police officers, to risk further crime by losing trained and experienced police staff.
- ecf 5y ago
  > Discrimination based on medical or health status is unacceptable. Weird take when vaccine mandates have been a normal part of life for decades.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    Sort of. They have been in force in some states for some applications (like K-12 schools) for some vaccines. Many of those states have also had broad exemptions for philosophical or religious reasons (https://vaccines.procon.org/state-vaccination-exemptions-for-children-entering-public-schools/ https://vaccines.procon.org/state-vaccination-exemptions-for...). But we haven't had a federal mandate for vaccination across the board (in public agencies, private companies, events, stores, schools, universities, etc), especially without exemptions. Even with that precedent, I feel the Jacbosen ruling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts) which enabled vaccine mandates was an incorrect one and that autonomy over one's physical body is the most basic level of civil liberty. The ACLU also agreed previously and pushed back on vaccine mandates (https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_...), although the more recent ACLU supports vaccine mandates and treats civil liberties as a gray area rather than a principled right.

23 points by version_five 5y ago

EastOfTruth 5y ago

Maybe they should stop wearing bullet-proof vests, also...

short12 5y ago
They should stop wearing bullet proof vests and stop pretending they are in a warzone. Because copping isnt that dangerous
- EastOfTruth 5y ago
  In some countries, cops don't even carry guns on a daily basis
  - sterlind 5y ago
    in those countries, nobody has guns - or at least, very few do. the genie's out of the bottle. the people you're policing have guns, so you need guns. the best you can do is to end qualified immunity, mandate always-on bodycams, and hold police accountable for their actions.
    - EastOfTruth 5y ago
      Cops in the US kill a lot more citizens then citizens kill cops ... (talking strictly about gun fire victims) https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings
- bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
  Covid was the number one killer of police this year and last, so if they had to pick between vaccinations and bullet proof vests…

killingtime74 5y ago

Reminds me of air traffic controller strike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Con.... If anyone think they are not replaceable they are in for a rude shock. City can easily hire private security/bring in the guard/hire new officers/reassign officers in desk jobs.

cratermoon 5y ago
Except that police union contracts tend to be somewhat more constraining than the ATC contract, and municipalities don't have the power of the federal executive branch to back them up for capriciously terminating employees.
LurkingPenguin 5y ago
I'm pretty sure you're overestimating just how many people are going to be eager to step into the line of fire in violent crime-ridden Chicago.
- short12 5y ago
  All of the leo deaths in Chicago for 2020 were covid Any cop quiting because they don't want to protect others is a cop that should find a new line of work
  - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
    > All of the leo deaths in Chicago for 2020 were covid And? This does not mean that being in law enforcement in Chicago is a risk-free, attractive proposition, even to those who are vaccinated. > Any cop quiting because they don't want to protect others is a cop that should find a new line of work That's a fair argument but it doesn't change the reality that Chicago is very unlikely to be able to easily replace the officers it terminates.
  - aorth 5y ago
    Article says: > Last year, 374 officers died - 245 of them due to Covid-19, more than any other cause combined. But yes it's very high!

jakelazaroff 5y ago

If you’re not willing to put the safety of the civilians you serve above your own comfort, maybe you shouldn’t be a cop?

walterbell 5y ago
If you've kept the public safe for months before the existence of non-sterilizing vaccines, were infected and recovered from Covid while protecting said public, have long-lasting nasal immunity that exceeds the protection (note: not immunity) of intramuscular vaccines and blood/serum antibodies, perhaps you understand the meaning of "Put on your oxygen mask before trying to help others". From the CDC website, updated on October 15, https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated-guidance.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vac... > Based on evolving evidence, CDC recommends fully vaccinated people get tested 5-7 days after close contact with a person with suspected or confirmed COVID i.e. vaccination does not prevent infection or transmission. Those (including cops) who have recovered from Covid are statistically immune from infection and thus transmission. This is borne out by UK surveillance data of 5 million people who previously tested positive for Covid.
- eesmith 5y ago
  > non-sterilizing vaccines What does "sterilizing vaccine" mean? It triggers my FUD alarm and makes me think you're an anti-vaxxer, > were infected and recovered You think this 1/3rd of the police that refuses to state their vaccination status already had COVID? Where's your evidence? The article says nothing about this, and we know some cops have not had COVID and refuse the vaccination. > vaccination does not prevent infection or transmission I don't know of any vaccination which is 100% effective and which can prevent transmission. Your statement again sounds like anti-vaxxer FUD. > Those (including cops) who have recovered from Covid are statistically immune Your "statistically immune" is seems like anti-vaxxer FUD obscuring how having COVID "does not prevent infection or transmission". Eg https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfe... points out "Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare . " Those who have been vaccinated are also "statistically immune", and through a lower risk route.

quantified 5y ago

Police usually resist following orders unless they are orders to increase the activity rate and level of violence. Worth keeping tabs on.

GaryTang 5y ago

Wasn’t Chicago screaming to defund the police last year anyway? Seattle fired those that wouldn’t comply. I expect Chicago will follow suit.

nielsbot 5y ago
Who?
- eesmith 5y ago
  Definitely not the mayor. From the other day, at https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2021/10/20/22737171/defund-police-lori-lightfoot-cpd-police-graduation-city-budget-vaccine-mandate https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2021/10/20/22737171/d... > Mayor Lori Lightfoot said Wednesday she will “never yield” to the voices who want to defund the police because the Chicagoans who make up what Police Supt. David Brown calls the “silent majority” overwhelmingly support the police.

credit_guy 5y ago

That’s an easy one: just play the stare-down game till the end. The day after the deadline it will turn out that only 0.5% of the cops are unvaccinated. Happened everywhere.

gremloni 5y ago

Good. It’s not like cops are hard to find. It’s basically an unskilled position with excellent benefits. It’s not even particularly dangerous unless you’re in very, very specific neighborhoods.

throwawaysea 5y ago

I am very pro vaccine but absolutely against mandates. Bodily autonomy is a fundamental civil liberty and constitutional right (as the ACLU previously asserted). Discrimination based on medical or health status is unacceptable. It is also illogical to institute such a mandate: COVID-19 has a very low IFR, and vaccines aren’t perfect. When comparing the risks with and without vaccination, we are talking about two low probability but nonzero risks. If people are scared, they need to take measures to protect or quarantine themselves, not demand that everyone else undergo a medical procedure against their will. Lastly, it is dangerous for cities like Chicago and Seattle, who are grappling with surging crime and a shortage of police officers, to risk further crime by losing trained and experienced police staff.

ecf 5y ago
> Discrimination based on medical or health status is unacceptable. Weird take when vaccine mandates have been a normal part of life for decades.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  Sort of. They have been in force in some states for some applications (like K-12 schools) for some vaccines. Many of those states have also had broad exemptions for philosophical or religious reasons (https://vaccines.procon.org/state-vaccination-exemptions-for-children-entering-public-schools/ https://vaccines.procon.org/state-vaccination-exemptions-for...). But we haven't had a federal mandate for vaccination across the board (in public agencies, private companies, events, stores, schools, universities, etc), especially without exemptions. Even with that precedent, I feel the Jacbosen ruling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts) which enabled vaccine mandates was an incorrect one and that autonomy over one's physical body is the most basic level of civil liberty. The ACLU also agreed previously and pushed back on vaccine mandates (https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_...), although the more recent ACLU supports vaccine mandates and treats civil liberties as a gray area rather than a principled right.