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> from the fact that he OKs unsafe technology and brands it as "autopilot" to half-baked, rushed assembly processes that produces terrible quality in the Model

> from the fact that he OKs unsafe technology and brands it as "autopilot" to half-baked, rushed assembly processes that produces terrible quality in the Model 3s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_disasters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_disasters Engineers don't get to put themselves up on a pedestal and claim they never do wrong, are never subject to incompetence, negligence, or other personal pressure in their lives like money.

h0l0cube 5y ago
But they do take responsibility and are open to scrutiny by their peers when they actually do wrong. In this sense, it's impossible to be a CEO making profit decisions (where loss of life is a balance sheet issue), and maintain the scruples of an engineer at the same time.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  > But they do take responsibility and are open to scrutiny by their peers when they actually do wrong. In this sense, it's impossible to be a CEO making profit decisions (where loss of life is a balance sheet issue), and maintain the scruples of an engineer at the same time. I don't know what you're saying. Engineers absolutely have been involved in everything from turning a blind eye to problems, shirking responsibility, and the normalization of deviance, all the way to deliberate coverups and crimes. You are naive about engineers. They're people pretty much like everybody else.
  - h0l0cube 5y ago
    Then it should be easy to come up with some concrete examples? The biggest examples in recent times where top-down profit motives trumped ethics: Boeing 737 Max - A cost cutting measure that came from above, 100s of lives lost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_groundings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_groundings Volkswagen diesel emissions scandal - Tax avoidance, increasing market share https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal Tesla Full-Self Driving - advertising full self driving capability when it's at best assisted and has led to multiple deaths https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/ And that's just the tip of the iceberg. > all the way to deliberate cover-ups and crimes. I don't doubt that engineers have done monstrous things, but only when the engineer is a stakeholder. In this case, they aren't your typical employee.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      I fail to see where any of your examples feature engineers speaking out, taking responsibility, and opening themselves to scrutiny before the problems became known. These are good examples of engineers being complicit or worse. > Tesla Full-Self Driving - advertising full self driving capability when it's at best assisted Since you have a bone to pick with Tesla though, I looked up how they're advertising full self driving. From their website "While no Tesla cars are fully autonomous today and require active driver supervision,". > and has led to multiple deaths https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/ This page does not appear to keep track of "Full Self Driving" deaths. Autopilot deaths are 5-10% of the deaths from Tesla wrecks, however they keep track of data. Doesn't really seem outlandish but it's obviously very hard to know -- it could be anywhere from a lot worse to a lot better than human only drivers, going by these numbers. You do know though that no company advertises these driver assists as offering complete protection from death. I don't think that's quite in the same category as the first two examples. > I don't doubt that engineers have done monstrous things, but only when the engineer is a stakeholder. In this case, they aren't your typical employee. No, this is not true. As well as being unintentionally incompetent, lazy, not keeping up with best practices etc., people get emotionally invested in their company, their teams, their project, their careers and cause them to knowingly and actively participate in these things even if they may not directly (or at all) stand to gain financially.
      - h0l0cube 5y ago
        > No, this is not true. As well as being unintentionally incompetent, lazy, not keeping up with best practices etc., people get emotionally invested in their company, their teams, their project, their careers and cause them to knowingly and actively participate in these things even if they may not directly (or at all) stand to gain financially. Once again, my assertion is that the motivation is typically not coming bottom-up from the engineers themselves, but top-down from senior management and stakeholders. Competent engineers who work in aviation, automotive, construction, etc. are generally motivated to avoid failure conditions. I'd actually be keen to know if you have any significant examples to the contrary - undoubtedly they exist. I'm not sure how you could fill the role of CEO, with a strong profit motive, and not be at conflict with an engineering mindset. It's possible that Elon is more scrupulous than most, and better placed to anticipate failure modes with his engineering background, but his messaging particularly on FSD has been leaned more towards market optimism, driving sales, generating investment, than the safety of passengers. > Since you have a bone to pick with Tesla I don't, but I don't lionize Tesla or Elon either.

h0l0cube 5y ago

But they do take responsibility and are open to scrutiny by their peers when they actually do wrong. In this sense, it's impossible to be a CEO making profit decisions (where loss of life is a balance sheet issue), and maintain the scruples of an engineer at the same time.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
> But they do take responsibility and are open to scrutiny by their peers when they actually do wrong. In this sense, it's impossible to be a CEO making profit decisions (where loss of life is a balance sheet issue), and maintain the scruples of an engineer at the same time. I don't know what you're saying. Engineers absolutely have been involved in everything from turning a blind eye to problems, shirking responsibility, and the normalization of deviance, all the way to deliberate coverups and crimes. You are naive about engineers. They're people pretty much like everybody else.
- h0l0cube 5y ago
  Then it should be easy to come up with some concrete examples? The biggest examples in recent times where top-down profit motives trumped ethics: Boeing 737 Max - A cost cutting measure that came from above, 100s of lives lost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_groundings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_groundings Volkswagen diesel emissions scandal - Tax avoidance, increasing market share https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal Tesla Full-Self Driving - advertising full self driving capability when it's at best assisted and has led to multiple deaths https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/ And that's just the tip of the iceberg. > all the way to deliberate cover-ups and crimes. I don't doubt that engineers have done monstrous things, but only when the engineer is a stakeholder. In this case, they aren't your typical employee.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    I fail to see where any of your examples feature engineers speaking out, taking responsibility, and opening themselves to scrutiny before the problems became known. These are good examples of engineers being complicit or worse. > Tesla Full-Self Driving - advertising full self driving capability when it's at best assisted Since you have a bone to pick with Tesla though, I looked up how they're advertising full self driving. From their website "While no Tesla cars are fully autonomous today and require active driver supervision,". > and has led to multiple deaths https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/ This page does not appear to keep track of "Full Self Driving" deaths. Autopilot deaths are 5-10% of the deaths from Tesla wrecks, however they keep track of data. Doesn't really seem outlandish but it's obviously very hard to know -- it could be anywhere from a lot worse to a lot better than human only drivers, going by these numbers. You do know though that no company advertises these driver assists as offering complete protection from death. I don't think that's quite in the same category as the first two examples. > I don't doubt that engineers have done monstrous things, but only when the engineer is a stakeholder. In this case, they aren't your typical employee. No, this is not true. As well as being unintentionally incompetent, lazy, not keeping up with best practices etc., people get emotionally invested in their company, their teams, their project, their careers and cause them to knowingly and actively participate in these things even if they may not directly (or at all) stand to gain financially.
    - h0l0cube 5y ago
      > No, this is not true. As well as being unintentionally incompetent, lazy, not keeping up with best practices etc., people get emotionally invested in their company, their teams, their project, their careers and cause them to knowingly and actively participate in these things even if they may not directly (or at all) stand to gain financially. Once again, my assertion is that the motivation is typically not coming bottom-up from the engineers themselves, but top-down from senior management and stakeholders. Competent engineers who work in aviation, automotive, construction, etc. are generally motivated to avoid failure conditions. I'd actually be keen to know if you have any significant examples to the contrary - undoubtedly they exist. I'm not sure how you could fill the role of CEO, with a strong profit motive, and not be at conflict with an engineering mindset. It's possible that Elon is more scrupulous than most, and better placed to anticipate failure modes with his engineering background, but his messaging particularly on FSD has been leaned more towards market optimism, driving sales, generating investment, than the safety of passengers. > Since you have a bone to pick with Tesla I don't, but I don't lionize Tesla or Elon either.