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Another way to frame this topic: intelligence doesn't always lead to impact, and impact is what matters. Example: I met a ton of trivia "nerds" through a frien

Another way to frame this topic: intelligence doesn't always lead to impact, and impact is what matters. Example: I met a ton of trivia "nerds" through a friend a few years ago. They had all met at an Ivy League college, they were clearly "smart" in that they knew a lot of information and could follow a logical argument but somehow none of them were able to use their smarts for anything practical. They had jobs you didn't need to be that smart for, and their personal lives were sort of messy. I didn't really know what to make it them at the time, now I think they had the "smarts" but they didn't have the "drive" so their brains sort of did them no good. Another example: Plenty of people are constantly frustrated that they are misunderstood. "I am so smart but I can't get anything done around here because everyone's an idiot." Some people go through their whole life believing this. Luckily I had a job that disabused me of this and taught me to communicate my ideas clearly and persuasively to others. But without that, without the ability to persuade people of your ideas, you might as well not have them.

bob1029 5y ago
Sometimes the best way to persuade someone regarding an idea is to actually implement the idea without their knowledge and then present it to them for review. We are talking about software, right? Only cost and liability around this is usually your time. I've only been scolded for writing a program a few times in my career.
hresvelgr 5y ago
> Another way to frame this topic: intelligence doesn't always lead to impact, and impact is what matters. Impact is a great way of putting it. There are plenty of really smart and creative people who will never produce anything impactful in their life. Impact in my opinion is really all about time-sensitivity and sprinkling of genius. The impact may not even resonate fully with the public in the person's lifetime either. Nikola Tesla being a prime example of this. A lot of very incredible people tend to be VERY open to new ideas. John Dee comes to mind in particular. When he could find no more wisdom in science, he looked to the occult. Nikola Tesla I believe also was quite interested in the occult as well. While I wouldn't consider the occult "out there" by any stretch nowadays, it's a good example unorthodox ideas can come from. > Plenty of people are constantly frustrated that they are misunderstood. "I am so smart but I can't get anything done around here because everyone's an idiot." I've found that kind of thinking tends to be the reason why some of those people are misunderstood. When your frame for interacting with people is setup like that, it's not unreasonable to assume one would put up conversational barriers to confirm their own bias of "everyone's an idiot."
- xyzelement 5y ago
  > it's not unreasonable to assume one would put up conversational barriers Yes exactly and likewise people aren't likely to be clamoring to hear your genius ideas when you're treating them like idiots.
  - pksebben 5y ago
    ... which leaves one to wonder how smart someone really is, for missing something so obvious.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      They understand that, they just don't want to pick up the Sisyphean task of trying to convince idiots. So instead they give up. Giving up doesn't mean that people stop complaining though, they know how to solve the problem but they don't want to do the work, it is called venting and most humans do it.
      - pksebben 5y ago
        In that case I would question the smarts of someone who spends too much time focused on things they do not intend to change. There comes a point where "raw" intelligence (if a real thing) must be tempered with the wisdom necessary to marry rubber and road, as it were. If you don't apply your staggeringly large intellect (/s?) to the problem of interfacing with other people, yet you persist putting yourself in situations where you must deal with that problem, what benefit has that intellect conferred?
        Jensson 5y ago
        You know, you sound like you are one of those people you describe yourself? Is that how you came to this realization? Ask yourself, what is the goal with your current comment? And how does being snide achieve that goal? If the goal is to make fun of people and feel good about yourself, then you are doing a good job! And then you should understand how those people you describe feel, because they feel exactly as you feel now, wasting time making fun of things you have no intention or care to change or spread. But if you want people to listen then you really need to get better at tempering what you say.
doublepg23 5y ago
> communicate my ideas clearly and persuasively to others How do you get the ability to do this? I've been attending a book club with a small number of friends and even in these casual settings I wish I could communicate my ideas better.
- aspenmayer 5y ago
  I have found that asking others about their concerns helps me understand my own, and also helps build a rapport with the other, which itself helps your own confidence in your communication skills, and helps inculcate domain knowledge. The more you know where others stand on an issue, and why, helps you to draw parallels and distinctions with your own beliefs and positions on an issue. The rapport and conversational dynamics you explore help you tailor your message so that your words and feelings are heard and felt, even if not shared. It's okay to say you have a point you don't know how to express. Talking around a topic is called beating around the bush colloquially, and in that common usage it's seen as wasting the listener's time if unwanted or unwarranted, but it serves an important function in itself. It's how you flush the ideas/birds out without upsetting/endangering yourself or others. Believe in yourself, and in your ideas. You both are valid. Your earnestness in your desire to express yourself better is the social proof! https://knowyourphrase.com/beating-around-the-bush https://knowyourphrase.com/beating-around-the-bush https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof
  - xyzelement 5y ago
    > It's okay to say you have a point you don't know how to express. Talking around a topic is called beating around the bush colloquially, and in that common usage it's seen as wasting the listener's time if unwanted or unwarranted, but it serves an important function in itself Agreed. When I do that, I call it out explicitly. I often say something like this in a meeting: "I haven't thought about how to articulate this too much, but I agree it's worth discussing. Mind if I 'talk at you' for a min and see where it gets us?" I wouldn't ever call it "beating around the bush" because it creates the impression you're wasting time and that's not what you should want, but saying upfront "hey I am gonna consciously ramble a bit and we'll circle up on the synthesis" often buys you some runway to do that.
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>They had jobs you didn't need to be that smart for, and their personal lives were sort of messy. One of the smartest people I know works in the building trade. He likes to save his mental energy for pursuits outside of work.
- mmargerum 5y ago
  is his name will?
TheRealDunkirk 5y ago
> Another way to frame this topic: intelligence doesn't always lead to impact, and impact is what matters. Which leads to the example of my career, and the illustration of the two "tech worlds" that now exist. As a "programming engineer," I've written a lot of software tools for other engineers that have expanded the boundaries of what was possible to achieve in usual timeframes. I've (mostly) worked as a programmer in engineering departments, and once the word of these kinds of projects get out, they often get shut down or taken over by IT proper. This has happened either because MY management was psychopathic, or OTHER management was MORE psychopathic. As a single full-stack developer, I've proven multiple times that I can launch a company-wide-impacting project at 100x the man-speed of a bog standard, outsourced, waterfall-managed IT project. I suspect embarrassment at this fact is why my projects have had such terrible luck politically. And this is my point: the human side -- the politics -- will always trump talent. If you don't "grease the wheels," you're going to have a bad time. > Luckily I had a job that disabused me of this and taught me to communicate my ideas clearly and persuasively to others. I have found it even worse than this. Despite clarity, people often hate feeling like you understand things at a level they will never. Sometimes, it's the clarity itself that puts people on their heels. Case in point: My boss and I just asked a group to add an API to get ONE PIECE of data from another, long-established, already-API-driven web site. After SEVERAL meetings about this, they finally came back with an implementation date TWO YEARS after we started asking. Another group on the other side of the world asked ME to implement an API in MY application, to get entire TABLES of information. I did it in 2 days. I cannot stress hard enough that management and other people hate, hate, HATE seeing this sort of discrepancy in ability. But what am I supposed to do? Delay my delivery by months just to make people feel better? Heck, maybe I should. We nerds like to think that the tech world should be a meritocracy. On the internet of the 90's, it was. PG continues to live in a world where he can elevate insight above politics with money. Many, here, work in companies with proper technical tracks, which rewards insight handsomely. I don't (and won't move). And if you don't, you have to do yourself a favor and deal with that reality, and learn how to play the political game. It's the political game that will determine your impact, and "gate" your technical ability. It sucks to write that out, but it's a truism of the world.
mewpmewp2 5y ago
There's also different types of "smarts". I think ability to memorise or generally know a lot is very different from noticing patterns or understanding of how things work and relate to each other. Especially nowadays, there's Google, you don't need to memorise a lot as you can just check everything. I think even Einstein said that "don't memorise what you can quickly check up" or had a similar sentiment. Very often trivia kings and queens don't know how to apply that knowledge practically and a lot of knowledge has benefits just to appear intelligent to other people. Also not to mention street smarts, emotional intelligence, leadership int and many other aspects. What made Einstein special to me is his ability to imagine how things work together and then he and or his mind kept endlessly obsessing over it to reach further and further conclusions. Essentially trying to create a model of the world and or trying to simulate in mind whatever is happening and which can lead to greater insights of what is causing what. I think true understanding is being able to imagine and predict how something works as opposed to memorising a lot of information about the thing.
michaelbrave 5y ago
I know a ton of smart people who get nothing done, not due to being surrounded by idiots but rather due to depression and anxiety(which anecdotally seems to hit harder when the person is smart for some reason).
- mmargerum 5y ago
  Smart people are also very lazy. I've always been an underachiever and am just as happy writing emacs lisp to do cool things as I am to reengineering some mess at work. Still get paid the same amount. I do good work but I don't overextend myself. This is how i've avoided burning out after 30 years.
mmargerum 5y ago
"I am so smart but I can't get anything done around here because everyone's an idiot." It's a thing. It's demoralizing to work with people who often make more than you do and are terrible at the craft and don't even look to improve. That along with obsessing about making me train "backups" in case I leave. I'm on my 4th backup now. They all left after I trained them.

bob1029 5y ago

Sometimes the best way to persuade someone regarding an idea is to actually implement the idea without their knowledge and then present it to them for review. We are talking about software, right? Only cost and liability around this is usually your time. I've only been scolded for writing a program a few times in my career.

hresvelgr 5y ago

> Another way to frame this topic: intelligence doesn't always lead to impact, and impact is what matters. Impact is a great way of putting it. There are plenty of really smart and creative people who will never produce anything impactful in their life. Impact in my opinion is really all about time-sensitivity and sprinkling of genius. The impact may not even resonate fully with the public in the person's lifetime either. Nikola Tesla being a prime example of this. A lot of very incredible people tend to be VERY open to new ideas. John Dee comes to mind in particular. When he could find no more wisdom in science, he looked to the occult. Nikola Tesla I believe also was quite interested in the occult as well. While I wouldn't consider the occult "out there" by any stretch nowadays, it's a good example unorthodox ideas can come from. > Plenty of people are constantly frustrated that they are misunderstood. "I am so smart but I can't get anything done around here because everyone's an idiot." I've found that kind of thinking tends to be the reason why some of those people are misunderstood. When your frame for interacting with people is setup like that, it's not unreasonable to assume one would put up conversational barriers to confirm their own bias of "everyone's an idiot."

xyzelement 5y ago
> it's not unreasonable to assume one would put up conversational barriers Yes exactly and likewise people aren't likely to be clamoring to hear your genius ideas when you're treating them like idiots.
- pksebben 5y ago
  ... which leaves one to wonder how smart someone really is, for missing something so obvious.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    They understand that, they just don't want to pick up the Sisyphean task of trying to convince idiots. So instead they give up. Giving up doesn't mean that people stop complaining though, they know how to solve the problem but they don't want to do the work, it is called venting and most humans do it.
    - pksebben 5y ago
      In that case I would question the smarts of someone who spends too much time focused on things they do not intend to change. There comes a point where "raw" intelligence (if a real thing) must be tempered with the wisdom necessary to marry rubber and road, as it were. If you don't apply your staggeringly large intellect (/s?) to the problem of interfacing with other people, yet you persist putting yourself in situations where you must deal with that problem, what benefit has that intellect conferred?
      - Jensson 5y ago
        You know, you sound like you are one of those people you describe yourself? Is that how you came to this realization? Ask yourself, what is the goal with your current comment? And how does being snide achieve that goal? If the goal is to make fun of people and feel good about yourself, then you are doing a good job! And then you should understand how those people you describe feel, because they feel exactly as you feel now, wasting time making fun of things you have no intention or care to change or spread. But if you want people to listen then you really need to get better at tempering what you say.

doublepg23 5y ago

> communicate my ideas clearly and persuasively to others How do you get the ability to do this? I've been attending a book club with a small number of friends and even in these casual settings I wish I could communicate my ideas better.

aspenmayer 5y ago
I have found that asking others about their concerns helps me understand my own, and also helps build a rapport with the other, which itself helps your own confidence in your communication skills, and helps inculcate domain knowledge. The more you know where others stand on an issue, and why, helps you to draw parallels and distinctions with your own beliefs and positions on an issue. The rapport and conversational dynamics you explore help you tailor your message so that your words and feelings are heard and felt, even if not shared. It's okay to say you have a point you don't know how to express. Talking around a topic is called beating around the bush colloquially, and in that common usage it's seen as wasting the listener's time if unwanted or unwarranted, but it serves an important function in itself. It's how you flush the ideas/birds out without upsetting/endangering yourself or others. Believe in yourself, and in your ideas. You both are valid. Your earnestness in your desire to express yourself better is the social proof! https://knowyourphrase.com/beating-around-the-bush https://knowyourphrase.com/beating-around-the-bush https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof
- xyzelement 5y ago
  > It's okay to say you have a point you don't know how to express. Talking around a topic is called beating around the bush colloquially, and in that common usage it's seen as wasting the listener's time if unwanted or unwarranted, but it serves an important function in itself Agreed. When I do that, I call it out explicitly. I often say something like this in a meeting: "I haven't thought about how to articulate this too much, but I agree it's worth discussing. Mind if I 'talk at you' for a min and see where it gets us?" I wouldn't ever call it "beating around the bush" because it creates the impression you're wasting time and that's not what you should want, but saying upfront "hey I am gonna consciously ramble a bit and we'll circle up on the synthesis" often buys you some runway to do that.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

>They had jobs you didn't need to be that smart for, and their personal lives were sort of messy. One of the smartest people I know works in the building trade. He likes to save his mental energy for pursuits outside of work.

mmargerum 5y ago
is his name will?

TheRealDunkirk 5y ago

> Another way to frame this topic: intelligence doesn't always lead to impact, and impact is what matters. Which leads to the example of my career, and the illustration of the two "tech worlds" that now exist. As a "programming engineer," I've written a lot of software tools for other engineers that have expanded the boundaries of what was possible to achieve in usual timeframes. I've (mostly) worked as a programmer in engineering departments, and once the word of these kinds of projects get out, they often get shut down or taken over by IT proper. This has happened either because MY management was psychopathic, or OTHER management was MORE psychopathic. As a single full-stack developer, I've proven multiple times that I can launch a company-wide-impacting project at 100x the man-speed of a bog standard, outsourced, waterfall-managed IT project. I suspect embarrassment at this fact is why my projects have had such terrible luck politically. And this is my point: the human side -- the politics -- will always trump talent. If you don't "grease the wheels," you're going to have a bad time. > Luckily I had a job that disabused me of this and taught me to communicate my ideas clearly and persuasively to others. I have found it even worse than this. Despite clarity, people often hate feeling like you understand things at a level they will never. Sometimes, it's the clarity itself that puts people on their heels. Case in point: My boss and I just asked a group to add an API to get ONE PIECE of data from another, long-established, already-API-driven web site. After SEVERAL meetings about this, they finally came back with an implementation date TWO YEARS after we started asking. Another group on the other side of the world asked ME to implement an API in MY application, to get entire TABLES of information. I did it in 2 days. I cannot stress hard enough that management and other people hate, hate, HATE seeing this sort of discrepancy in ability. But what am I supposed to do? Delay my delivery by months just to make people feel better? Heck, maybe I should. We nerds like to think that the tech world should be a meritocracy. On the internet of the 90's, it was. PG continues to live in a world where he can elevate insight above politics with money. Many, here, work in companies with proper technical tracks, which rewards insight handsomely. I don't (and won't move). And if you don't, you have to do yourself a favor and deal with that reality, and learn how to play the political game. It's the political game that will determine your impact, and "gate" your technical ability. It sucks to write that out, but it's a truism of the world.

mewpmewp2 5y ago

There's also different types of "smarts". I think ability to memorise or generally know a lot is very different from noticing patterns or understanding of how things work and relate to each other. Especially nowadays, there's Google, you don't need to memorise a lot as you can just check everything. I think even Einstein said that "don't memorise what you can quickly check up" or had a similar sentiment. Very often trivia kings and queens don't know how to apply that knowledge practically and a lot of knowledge has benefits just to appear intelligent to other people. Also not to mention street smarts, emotional intelligence, leadership int and many other aspects. What made Einstein special to me is his ability to imagine how things work together and then he and or his mind kept endlessly obsessing over it to reach further and further conclusions. Essentially trying to create a model of the world and or trying to simulate in mind whatever is happening and which can lead to greater insights of what is causing what. I think true understanding is being able to imagine and predict how something works as opposed to memorising a lot of information about the thing.

michaelbrave 5y ago

I know a ton of smart people who get nothing done, not due to being surrounded by idiots but rather due to depression and anxiety(which anecdotally seems to hit harder when the person is smart for some reason).

mmargerum 5y ago
Smart people are also very lazy. I've always been an underachiever and am just as happy writing emacs lisp to do cool things as I am to reengineering some mess at work. Still get paid the same amount. I do good work but I don't overextend myself. This is how i've avoided burning out after 30 years.

mmargerum 5y ago

"I am so smart but I can't get anything done around here because everyone's an idiot." It's a thing. It's demoralizing to work with people who often make more than you do and are terrible at the craft and don't even look to improve. That along with obsessing about making me train "backups" in case I leave. I'm on my 4th backup now. They all left after I trained them.