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Tesla said that they will use LFP batteries from now on in all "standard range" cars. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-s

Tesla said that they will use LFP batteries from now on in all "standard range" cars. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-standard-range-cars.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... As I understand it, the "standard range" cars are no different from the long range cars, other than a software flag that allows a greater battery discharge. So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those. https://www.tesla.com/videos/battery-swap-event https://www.tesla.com/videos/battery-swap-event https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan-isnt-working-out-2015-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan...

ericmay 5y ago
> So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those. I don’t think they’ll ever build those. Huge infrastructure requirement, gigantic overhead, most people don’t take long-distance trips often and when they do a 20 minute supercharge is good enough for people to not really demand a battery swap station. You also can expand the footprint of “cords” much faster and much farther. Not to mention battery swap stations probably wouldn’t be designed to service other cars, unlike future charging stalls.
iknowstuff 5y ago
Tesla has no plans to develop battery swap stations. They abandoned them back in 2015 or so. Standard range cars have fewer cells than long range cars, so it's not just software, they physically output less power.
pmorici 5y ago
"So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those." They aren't planning do battery swapping. None of their recent designs have any provisions for it. That was something they considered early on and then abandon once they advanced their fast charging technology.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cma 5y ago
  They took a half billion in subsidies from California for battery swapping and never planned on actually implementing it broadly IMO. They just met the letter of the rules to qualify, then move HQ to Texas after subsidies run dry and they don't want as much taxation as normal CA small businesses who subsidized them.
  - panick21 5y ago
    They still have a gigantic factory in California, they built a battery factory there and have a huge battery research team in California, they have another research team in San Diago and they just announced building a Megapack production factory in California. Jesus why are Califonians so thin skinned.
    - cma 5y ago
      I'm not Californian.
      - panick21 5y ago
        What is it with the endless whining about this decision, by Californians and you. California got exactly what wanted, its leading in EVs. It got a huge number of jobs, including reopening a big plant. Its leading in battery tech. Those companies help fund their universities. Tesla is one of the few companies mass manufacturing in California at all. They got more then their monies worth. Tesla even did really fast charging just not with swapping. So I really don't see why people are so upset about this. Swapping was clearly the wrong solution, and Tesla instead invested in a better solution. Thanks to that California has a huge amount of fast charging stations. It seems to me what it is really about is just finding any reason to be angry at Tesla. If you actually think about it, with a fixed amount of capital, what should they have done, build battery swap station or deploy fast chargers?
caf 5y ago
The standard range cars have a physically smaller battery and one fewer motor.
dangrossman 5y ago
There are a couple replies about why Tesla doesn't still do battery swaps, but none of them got it right: Back when Tesla demoed the battery swap capability, California's CARB was offering extra ZEV credits for each electric vehicle sold with "fast refueling" capability. Tesla set up the single "battery swap station" in order to comply with the letter of the law and collect a few extra tens of millions in credits. That one station they opened was right across the street from a free Supercharger station, had no capability for automated battery swaps, and was available by invitation only. As soon as Tesla collected its extra ZEV credits and the qualifications changed, the station was abandoned.
- jiggawatts 5y ago
  This is the same type of thing as the "green" hydrogen-based initiatives. Literally 100% of these are run by fossil-fuel companies that want to get various incentives and credits for green initiatives. Hydrogen is hilariously bad at everything, and makes zero sense to use for any purpose. Yet, it keeps getting pushed and pushed because of these legal fictions.
  - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
    For cars I definitely agree. I think hydrogen might be used for planes in the future. The future for them isn't going to be electric, so if we want 0 emission planes, there isn't really a viable alternative.
    - jiggawatts 5y ago
      Storage may be troublesome for planes. The high-pressure tanks are heavy, and the low-pressure storage tanks are even more heavy. Aircraft fuel tanks are just empty unused spaces in the wings and the like, they're practically free in terms of weight. Also, jet fuel has a nice balance energy per unit weight and energy per unit volume. Hydrogen is too skewed, it is the lightest fuel but takes a huge volume. For planes, it would make more sense to synthesise jet fuel from atmospheric CO2, or CO2 captured from industrial exhaust.
gremloni 5y ago
Battery swap stations are never going to happen. They make up too much of the cost of the vehicle. Maybe in government public transport fleets or something.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  Battery swap stations have happened. NIO has done over 4 million battery swaps: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/nio-customers-have-performed-over-4-million-battery-swaps-with-their-evs/ https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/nio-customers-have-perform... NIO is expanding their battery swap stations to Europe: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/10/nio-brings-battery-swapping-to-europe-as-they-launch-es8-suv-and-open-first-nio-house-in-norway/ https://www.carscoops.com/2021/10/nio-brings-battery-swappin... Gogoro has done over 200 million battery swaps: https://www.gogoro.com/news/400k-gogoro-network-subscribers/ https://www.gogoro.com/news/400k-gogoro-network-subscribers/ Gogoro is expanding their battery swap network: https://thedriven.io/2021/10/12/taiwans-gogoro-launches-battery-swapping-stations-in-mainland-china/ https://thedriven.io/2021/10/12/taiwans-gogoro-launches-batt...
  - panick21 5y ago
    How many % of overall EV are refueled by battery swapping? That is actually a better indicator then saying X company has performed X swaps. Its probably like 0.0001%. Compare the amount of swap station to the amount of fast chargers. Battery swap is niche of niche of a niche for cars. Gogoro is for scooters, I think its pretty clear we were talking about cars.
    - clouddrover 5y ago
      So it started as "battery swap stations will never happen" but now it's having a whinge that they're not more widely used, and you're not even the person I was replying to. Still, this kind of back-pedaling and goalpost shifting is entertaining.
      - panick21 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
The battery swap stations were a scam to get subsidies. They aren't any more real than the Cybertruck, Model 2, Roadster, solar roofs, semi, or Full Self Driving.
- leesec 5y ago
  Lol you people always come out of the wood work. They are supply constrained, they are not lying about their product line. FSD being the only maybe but I genuinely think they think they can make it work.
  - drannex 5y ago
    It has been 700 days since Tesla & Co debuted the Cybertruck and took pre-orders, with no new tangible updates. It has been 1,435 days since Tesla & Co took pre-orders charging a $50,000 deposit to pre-order the roadster. It has been 1,435 days since Tesla & Co announced the Tesla Semi, with no new tangible updates since 2017. They have legally filed that their system is, and will be for the long foreseeable future, level 2 autonomy, far from "full self driving" of L5 autonony that they advertise and actively market to unknowing consumers.
    - bagels 5y ago
      They would make so much money with a model 2 that they might be able to justify their valuation. I find it hard to believe that they won't eventually build it. Obviously not going to happen until factories are not at capacity with higher margin cars, but it seems likely to eventually happen.
      - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
        There are affordable electric cars on the market today with better build quality than what Tesla sells for $80k. Someone will make a killing off affordable electric cars. Every indication is it will not be Tesla.
        5y ago

ericmay 5y ago

> So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those. I don’t think they’ll ever build those. Huge infrastructure requirement, gigantic overhead, most people don’t take long-distance trips often and when they do a 20 minute supercharge is good enough for people to not really demand a battery swap station. You also can expand the footprint of “cords” much faster and much farther. Not to mention battery swap stations probably wouldn’t be designed to service other cars, unlike future charging stalls.

iknowstuff 5y ago

Tesla has no plans to develop battery swap stations. They abandoned them back in 2015 or so. Standard range cars have fewer cells than long range cars, so it's not just software, they physically output less power.

pmorici 5y ago

"So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those." They aren't planning do battery swapping. None of their recent designs have any provisions for it. That was something they considered early on and then abandon once they advanced their fast charging technology.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cma 5y ago
They took a half billion in subsidies from California for battery swapping and never planned on actually implementing it broadly IMO. They just met the letter of the rules to qualify, then move HQ to Texas after subsidies run dry and they don't want as much taxation as normal CA small businesses who subsidized them.
- panick21 5y ago
  They still have a gigantic factory in California, they built a battery factory there and have a huge battery research team in California, they have another research team in San Diago and they just announced building a Megapack production factory in California. Jesus why are Califonians so thin skinned.
  - cma 5y ago
    I'm not Californian.
    - panick21 5y ago
      What is it with the endless whining about this decision, by Californians and you. California got exactly what wanted, its leading in EVs. It got a huge number of jobs, including reopening a big plant. Its leading in battery tech. Those companies help fund their universities. Tesla is one of the few companies mass manufacturing in California at all. They got more then their monies worth. Tesla even did really fast charging just not with swapping. So I really don't see why people are so upset about this. Swapping was clearly the wrong solution, and Tesla instead invested in a better solution. Thanks to that California has a huge amount of fast charging stations. It seems to me what it is really about is just finding any reason to be angry at Tesla. If you actually think about it, with a fixed amount of capital, what should they have done, build battery swap station or deploy fast chargers?

caf 5y ago

The standard range cars have a physically smaller battery and one fewer motor.

dangrossman 5y ago

There are a couple replies about why Tesla doesn't still do battery swaps, but none of them got it right: Back when Tesla demoed the battery swap capability, California's CARB was offering extra ZEV credits for each electric vehicle sold with "fast refueling" capability. Tesla set up the single "battery swap station" in order to comply with the letter of the law and collect a few extra tens of millions in credits. That one station they opened was right across the street from a free Supercharger station, had no capability for automated battery swaps, and was available by invitation only. As soon as Tesla collected its extra ZEV credits and the qualifications changed, the station was abandoned.

jiggawatts 5y ago
This is the same type of thing as the "green" hydrogen-based initiatives. Literally 100% of these are run by fossil-fuel companies that want to get various incentives and credits for green initiatives. Hydrogen is hilariously bad at everything, and makes zero sense to use for any purpose. Yet, it keeps getting pushed and pushed because of these legal fictions.
- adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
  For cars I definitely agree. I think hydrogen might be used for planes in the future. The future for them isn't going to be electric, so if we want 0 emission planes, there isn't really a viable alternative.
  - jiggawatts 5y ago
    Storage may be troublesome for planes. The high-pressure tanks are heavy, and the low-pressure storage tanks are even more heavy. Aircraft fuel tanks are just empty unused spaces in the wings and the like, they're practically free in terms of weight. Also, jet fuel has a nice balance energy per unit weight and energy per unit volume. Hydrogen is too skewed, it is the lightest fuel but takes a huge volume. For planes, it would make more sense to synthesise jet fuel from atmospheric CO2, or CO2 captured from industrial exhaust.

gremloni 5y ago

Battery swap stations are never going to happen. They make up too much of the cost of the vehicle. Maybe in government public transport fleets or something.

clouddrover 5y ago
Battery swap stations have happened. NIO has done over 4 million battery swaps: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/nio-customers-have-performed-over-4-million-battery-swaps-with-their-evs/ https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/nio-customers-have-perform... NIO is expanding their battery swap stations to Europe: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/10/nio-brings-battery-swapping-to-europe-as-they-launch-es8-suv-and-open-first-nio-house-in-norway/ https://www.carscoops.com/2021/10/nio-brings-battery-swappin... Gogoro has done over 200 million battery swaps: https://www.gogoro.com/news/400k-gogoro-network-subscribers/ https://www.gogoro.com/news/400k-gogoro-network-subscribers/ Gogoro is expanding their battery swap network: https://thedriven.io/2021/10/12/taiwans-gogoro-launches-battery-swapping-stations-in-mainland-china/ https://thedriven.io/2021/10/12/taiwans-gogoro-launches-batt...
- panick21 5y ago
  How many % of overall EV are refueled by battery swapping? That is actually a better indicator then saying X company has performed X swaps. Its probably like 0.0001%. Compare the amount of swap station to the amount of fast chargers. Battery swap is niche of niche of a niche for cars. Gogoro is for scooters, I think its pretty clear we were talking about cars.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    So it started as "battery swap stations will never happen" but now it's having a whinge that they're not more widely used, and you're not even the person I was replying to. Still, this kind of back-pedaling and goalpost shifting is entertaining.
    - panick21 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago

The battery swap stations were a scam to get subsidies. They aren't any more real than the Cybertruck, Model 2, Roadster, solar roofs, semi, or Full Self Driving.

leesec 5y ago
Lol you people always come out of the wood work. They are supply constrained, they are not lying about their product line. FSD being the only maybe but I genuinely think they think they can make it work.
- drannex 5y ago
  It has been 700 days since Tesla & Co debuted the Cybertruck and took pre-orders, with no new tangible updates. It has been 1,435 days since Tesla & Co took pre-orders charging a $50,000 deposit to pre-order the roadster. It has been 1,435 days since Tesla & Co announced the Tesla Semi, with no new tangible updates since 2017. They have legally filed that their system is, and will be for the long foreseeable future, level 2 autonomy, far from "full self driving" of L5 autonony that they advertise and actively market to unknowing consumers.
  - bagels 5y ago
    They would make so much money with a model 2 that they might be able to justify their valuation. I find it hard to believe that they won't eventually build it. Obviously not going to happen until factories are not at capacity with higher margin cars, but it seems likely to eventually happen.
    - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
      There are affordable electric cars on the market today with better build quality than what Tesla sells for $80k. Someone will make a killing off affordable electric cars. Every indication is it will not be Tesla.
      - 5y ago