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Just in case -> BYD Co. Ltd. is a Chinese manufacturing company headquartered in Shenzhen, Guangdong, founded by Wang Chuanfu in February 1995. Perhaps someone

Just in case -> BYD Co. Ltd. is a Chinese manufacturing company headquartered in Shenzhen, Guangdong, founded by Wang Chuanfu in February 1995. Perhaps someone can comment on quality of these batteries compared to the current car batteries Tesla uses?

ceejayoz 5y ago
BYD is also a competitor in the electric vehicle space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto (They make great KN95 masks, incidentally.)
- BOOSTERHIDROGEN 5y ago
  Any references what makes their KN95 great ?
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    I never tried their KN95s but their surgical masks are pretty great, the ear hook is thicker and softer with better elasticity and the nose metal band felt nice. I wouldn't go out of my way too much though.
cowmix 5y ago
Better: * can charge to 100% all the time * no rare earth minerals * stable Worse: * not as energy dense * US doesn't make a lot of this type of battery
- CarVac 5y ago
  The US doesn't make a lot of this type of battery because there is a consortium of patent-holders who charge enough to make LFP less economically viable that wasn't able to secure all the needed patents in China.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Didn't this also happen with airplanes in like the 1910s? Can't we fix it in a similar way?
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    Climate mitigation depends on patent reform, sounds like.
    - sbierwagen 5y ago
      Patents have a 20 year lifetime. US5910382 and US6514640 have already expired. It might speed up climate mitigation, but it's not strictly required for it to happen.
  - elihu 5y ago
    I think the main patents that haven't expired yet are about to expire in 2022.
  - monkeybutton 5y ago
    Why charge so much to license that no one will bother? Is it sunk cost thinking? Some money from licensing is better than nothing at all isn't it?
    - space_rock 5y ago
      It's amazing how broken of a system it is. The theory is ok but I today's world they don't work. Change the time scale to 10 years at least. Or require active use even better
    - RNCTX 5y ago
      To create monopoly, the answer is always to create a monopoly. All of this was set in our future when corporations were not prohibited from having patents.
      - gruez 5y ago
sudosysgen 5y ago
So Tesla's Li-ion batteries are going to have a significantly higher mass energy density - these are around 150Wh/kg vs 230Wh/kg that Tesla can currently muster. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that LiFePO4 handles 100% charges and 100% discharge, so in practice the protections on Li-ion means you can only really get 190Wh or so out of them every day, significantly narrowing the gap. However, these are going to be ~4x cheaper for the same capacity, and are much safer, so some weight might be gained, but they won't take more space, possibly less space because they are prismatic. To give you an estimate on the possible cost savings, BYD has it's own EVs, and the one they are releasing using these batteries costs 20 000$ before subsidies for 51kWh. LiFePO4 also has much higher durability - that means that you can get away with more efficient pack designs, and probably that they can handle much faster charging.
- r00fus 5y ago
  Iron based batteries also remove cobalt and nickel requirements, making them less environmental and politically difficult. Anything to make EVs more mainstream has my interest.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Absolutely, it's a big part of why they're cheaper. I just wish I could actually get them for reasonable prices in smaller quantities. I have to pay a 3-5x premium for LiFePO4 batteries. I'd love some at a reasonable premium for my ebike :)
    - dylan604 5y ago
      eBike batteries are as unique as all of the power tool ones so that they are all different. what's your approach to housing and connecting your DIY battery for your make/model? i just recently became an eBike owner as well, and a second battery pack is 1/3 the price of the bike.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        I built my own ebike. I can basically make the battery pack into any shape I want. Right now I run 14s10p 18650s - it cost me 200$ to make and it has as much capacity as 3000$ worth of Bosch powerpacks. Secondary battery packs are so expensive because of DRM and lack of interoperability. I could make for 100$ a battery pack that Bosch sells for 900$. You're really not paying for the cells. Power tool batteries aren't really unique either btw. The shape is slightly different but they're all just 2p-3p 18650s with basic slot connectors.
gamblor956 5y ago
For point of comparison, LA had several EV buses built by BYD and literally none of them work anymore despite only being service for about a month or two. In fact, almost every US transit agency that has purchased a BYD EV has had issues with the vehicles, batteries, or both. So to answer your questions: the BYD batteries will be a lot lower quality than the batteries Tesla currently gets.
balia 5y ago
Is arbitrarily pointing out “fyi this is a CHINESE business” the new “fyi this is a JEWISH business”?
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  That interpretation might be a bit inflammatory. But at a minimum, it's certainly the new "fyi this is a JAPANESE business." How'd that work out for the generation of manufacturers that used it as a veiled insult?
  - DavidPiper 5y ago
    As a young(ish) person, I've definitely heard "fyi this is a CHINESE business", but haven't really heard "fyi this is a JEWISH business" or "fyi this is a JAPANESE business". Are there communicable/generalised messages or stereotypes people are trying to invoke with this sort of thing, or have they always just been intended as slander?
    - tuatoru 5y ago
      I can't speak to "Jewish", but I can to "Japanese". It relates to Japan's industrial rise after WWII. In the 1950s, "Japanese" was synonymous with "shoddy and cheap". The stereotypical import from Japan was an HB pencil. In the 1980s, "Japanese" became synonymous with "cheap and reliable" -- think Toyota vs General Motors. American manufacturers responded with racism rather than fixing their problems. There was hysteria in the mainstream media that Japan was going to overtake the US to become the biggest economy in the world. People who see the world in zero-sum terms made idiots of themselves.* In the 2010s, "Japanese" seems to have become synonymous with "advanced and very high quality". "Japanese capacitors" on computer motherboards, for instance. And now that the Chinese are here, we've always been best buddies with Japan. To some extent this same sequence is happening with South Korea and Taiwan, and possibly Israel. * There's a famous essay, "The Paranoid Style in American Politics" which goes some way to describing this zero-sum, win-or-lose thinking in politicians. The first few paragraphs read like they could have been written this year. https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/ https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-am...
sbierwagen 5y ago
Tesla cars manufactured in China use Chinese LFP batteries: https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/tesla-model-3-australia-made-in-china-differences https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/tesla-model-3-australia-made-i... This story is about Tesla maybe switching from one Chinese vendor to another.
smackeyacky 5y ago
I can't comment on the batteries, but Shenzhen 4 years ago was full of BYD taxis. They seemed pretty good compared to the ancient diesel VW Passats that were the alternative.
zamalek 5y ago
I am a very minor investor. They quite recently pioneered some very slick flat batteries. The volume/joule is better (not sure about joule/kg), and the batteries could become structural. I find them speculatively interesting.

ceejayoz 5y ago

BYD is also a competitor in the electric vehicle space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto (They make great KN95 masks, incidentally.)

BOOSTERHIDROGEN 5y ago
Any references what makes their KN95 great ?
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  I never tried their KN95s but their surgical masks are pretty great, the ear hook is thicker and softer with better elasticity and the nose metal band felt nice. I wouldn't go out of my way too much though.

cowmix 5y ago

Better: * can charge to 100% all the time * no rare earth minerals * stable Worse: * not as energy dense * US doesn't make a lot of this type of battery

CarVac 5y ago
The US doesn't make a lot of this type of battery because there is a consortium of patent-holders who charge enough to make LFP less economically viable that wasn't able to secure all the needed patents in China.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Didn't this also happen with airplanes in like the 1910s? Can't we fix it in a similar way?
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Climate mitigation depends on patent reform, sounds like.
  - sbierwagen 5y ago
    Patents have a 20 year lifetime. US5910382 and US6514640 have already expired. It might speed up climate mitigation, but it's not strictly required for it to happen.
- elihu 5y ago
  I think the main patents that haven't expired yet are about to expire in 2022.
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  Why charge so much to license that no one will bother? Is it sunk cost thinking? Some money from licensing is better than nothing at all isn't it?
  - space_rock 5y ago
    It's amazing how broken of a system it is. The theory is ok but I today's world they don't work. Change the time scale to 10 years at least. Or require active use even better
  - RNCTX 5y ago
    To create monopoly, the answer is always to create a monopoly. All of this was set in our future when corporations were not prohibited from having patents.
    - gruez 5y ago

sudosysgen 5y ago

So Tesla's Li-ion batteries are going to have a significantly higher mass energy density - these are around 150Wh/kg vs 230Wh/kg that Tesla can currently muster. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that LiFePO4 handles 100% charges and 100% discharge, so in practice the protections on Li-ion means you can only really get 190Wh or so out of them every day, significantly narrowing the gap. However, these are going to be ~4x cheaper for the same capacity, and are much safer, so some weight might be gained, but they won't take more space, possibly less space because they are prismatic. To give you an estimate on the possible cost savings, BYD has it's own EVs, and the one they are releasing using these batteries costs 20 000$ before subsidies for 51kWh. LiFePO4 also has much higher durability - that means that you can get away with more efficient pack designs, and probably that they can handle much faster charging.

r00fus 5y ago
Iron based batteries also remove cobalt and nickel requirements, making them less environmental and politically difficult. Anything to make EVs more mainstream has my interest.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Absolutely, it's a big part of why they're cheaper. I just wish I could actually get them for reasonable prices in smaller quantities. I have to pay a 3-5x premium for LiFePO4 batteries. I'd love some at a reasonable premium for my ebike :)
  - dylan604 5y ago
    eBike batteries are as unique as all of the power tool ones so that they are all different. what's your approach to housing and connecting your DIY battery for your make/model? i just recently became an eBike owner as well, and a second battery pack is 1/3 the price of the bike.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      I built my own ebike. I can basically make the battery pack into any shape I want. Right now I run 14s10p 18650s - it cost me 200$ to make and it has as much capacity as 3000$ worth of Bosch powerpacks. Secondary battery packs are so expensive because of DRM and lack of interoperability. I could make for 100$ a battery pack that Bosch sells for 900$. You're really not paying for the cells. Power tool batteries aren't really unique either btw. The shape is slightly different but they're all just 2p-3p 18650s with basic slot connectors.

gamblor956 5y ago

For point of comparison, LA had several EV buses built by BYD and literally none of them work anymore despite only being service for about a month or two. In fact, almost every US transit agency that has purchased a BYD EV has had issues with the vehicles, batteries, or both. So to answer your questions: the BYD batteries will be a lot lower quality than the batteries Tesla currently gets.

balia 5y ago

Is arbitrarily pointing out “fyi this is a CHINESE business” the new “fyi this is a JEWISH business”?

CamperBob2 5y ago
That interpretation might be a bit inflammatory. But at a minimum, it's certainly the new "fyi this is a JAPANESE business." How'd that work out for the generation of manufacturers that used it as a veiled insult?
- DavidPiper 5y ago
  As a young(ish) person, I've definitely heard "fyi this is a CHINESE business", but haven't really heard "fyi this is a JEWISH business" or "fyi this is a JAPANESE business". Are there communicable/generalised messages or stereotypes people are trying to invoke with this sort of thing, or have they always just been intended as slander?
  - tuatoru 5y ago
    I can't speak to "Jewish", but I can to "Japanese". It relates to Japan's industrial rise after WWII. In the 1950s, "Japanese" was synonymous with "shoddy and cheap". The stereotypical import from Japan was an HB pencil. In the 1980s, "Japanese" became synonymous with "cheap and reliable" -- think Toyota vs General Motors. American manufacturers responded with racism rather than fixing their problems. There was hysteria in the mainstream media that Japan was going to overtake the US to become the biggest economy in the world. People who see the world in zero-sum terms made idiots of themselves.* In the 2010s, "Japanese" seems to have become synonymous with "advanced and very high quality". "Japanese capacitors" on computer motherboards, for instance. And now that the Chinese are here, we've always been best buddies with Japan. To some extent this same sequence is happening with South Korea and Taiwan, and possibly Israel. * There's a famous essay, "The Paranoid Style in American Politics" which goes some way to describing this zero-sum, win-or-lose thinking in politicians. The first few paragraphs read like they could have been written this year. https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/ https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-am...

sbierwagen 5y ago

Tesla cars manufactured in China use Chinese LFP batteries: https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/tesla-model-3-australia-made-in-china-differences https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/tesla-model-3-australia-made-i... This story is about Tesla maybe switching from one Chinese vendor to another.

smackeyacky 5y ago

I can't comment on the batteries, but Shenzhen 4 years ago was full of BYD taxis. They seemed pretty good compared to the ancient diesel VW Passats that were the alternative.

zamalek 5y ago

I am a very minor investor. They quite recently pioneered some very slick flat batteries. The volume/joule is better (not sure about joule/kg), and the batteries could become structural. I find them speculatively interesting.