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In his final work (Harmonies économiques, 1850) Bastiat claims that the basis of economic liberty is economic harmony. Interesting, because this connects the ph

In his final work (Harmonies économiques, 1850) Bastiat claims that the basis of economic liberty is economic harmony. Interesting, because this connects the philosophy of capitalism to the philosophy of Communist China (to advance a “harmonious society”). Sure, why not? Here is Bastiat: “The conclusion of the Economists is for Liberty. But in order that this conclusion should take hold of men’s minds and hearts, it must be solidly based on this fundamental principle, that interests, left to themselves, tend to harmonious combinations, and to the progressive preponderance of the general good.”

dr_dshiv 5y ago
And, in 1851, Abraham Lincoln’s chief economic advisor, Henry Charles Carey, published his own book on economic harmony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Charles_Carey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Charles_Carey Carey used harmony to refer to many phenomena, like how increased worker wages leads to benefits for owners. It’s lovely stuff. This systems-level beauty seems absent from contemporary economic schools of thought.
- sonofhans 5y ago
  > systems-level beauty I’m sorry, I can’t hear you over the hordes screaming “SHAREHOLDER VALUE!” I agree with you, FWIW, and think you put it in a nice way.
TacticalCoder 5y ago
Wait... The word "harmonious" has been used once in two different translations to english, and so suddenly Bastiat has an ideology close to the one of communist china!?
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  Yes! Everything that can be reduced to a word cloud will be reduced to a word cloud. Then, those things that can't be reduced to a word cloud will be reduced anyways, and no one will know the better, since word cloud comparisons is what they'll check.
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    It is not a matter of translation. This isn’t a “word cloud”: “freedom is the most beautiful of social harmonies; fairness is the best policy. Christianity introduced the great principle of human brotherhood into the world. It is addressed to the heart, to the feeling, to the noble instincts. Political economy comes to make cold reason accept the same principle, and, showing the linkage of effects to causes, reconciles, in a consoling agreement, the calculations of the most vigilant interest with the inspirations of the most gorgeous.” http://bastiat.org/fr/conclusion_eo_harmonies.html http://bastiat.org/fr/conclusion_eo_harmonies.html
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      It is, in fact, nothing more than a word cloud. To prove this, I note that all you do is put quotes side by side that have some key words in common. You have not managed to describe Bastiat's economic theory or compare/contrast it with any other theory's core beliefs. The passage you cite is a generic flourish that contains no economic content. So this is literally a word cloud argument with two out of context sentences in completely different economic paradigms.
      - dr_dshiv 5y ago
        I’ve given key quotes with content that reflects the main idea of his final book. You’ve made a hand wavy dismissal with no content. Feel free to actually read his book so you know what I’m talking about. Note I’m not claiming that Bastiat was a communist; rather that the aims of communism may be best served by markets. Because harmony is viewed as a common value, which should be fascinating. But I don’t need to argue if you are already decided.
        rsj_hn 5y ago
        These are not "key quotes". First, you don't analyze someone with key quotes but with key ideas. You explain the key ideas by supporting them with quotes. There is no essential or distinguishing idea here. And the cited quotes are rather formulaic for the genre, containing no substance, which is why you can find them in a variety of writers that share nothing in common except for subject matter. You might as well say there is a lot of commonality between the governmental structures of North Korea and England becase there are key quotes using the word "democratic" or "people".
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  It’s not a matter of translation, it’s right there in the French (Harmonies économiques). He investigates why market societies tend to form into harmonious systems or organized wholes. He uses the word “harmony” extensively throughout the book and specifically in relation to the Pythagorean “harmony of the spheres”. And, yes, with his magnum opus he does suddenly end up having principles much closer to those of Communist China. Are you offended? This quote of Bastiat might put things in perspective: “It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.” Markets may be the best way to serve the needs of society. But the point—even for Bastiat!—is to serve the needs of society. Is that shocking?
kgwgk 5y ago
Is the philosophy of Communist China to advance a harmonious society by letting individual’s “interests, left to themselves, tend to harmonious combinations”? Bastiat claims that liberty leads to harmony and those seeking the latter should embrace the former!
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  > Bastiat claims that liberty leads to harmony and those seeking the latter should embrace the former! Precisely!
  - kgwgk 5y ago
    Ok, the philosophy of every political movement is close then. All talk about doing what is best for the people. (And, if anything, this connects the philosophy of Communist China to the philosophy of capitalism. Mao was born well after Bastiat’s death.)
    - dr_dshiv 5y ago
      Well, it is actually the connection between Classical Chinese philosophy (Confucius & Lao Tse) and Classical Western philosophy (Pythagoras and Plato). That’s where the idea of harmony came from, for the Chinese govt and Bastiat, respectively.
      - kgwgk 5y ago
        I find that the CPC’s idea the of social harmony seems closer to the Western pre-determined / dialectic conception and the liberal idea closer to the emergent / diversity view of the Eastern tradition.
        dr_dshiv 5y ago
        That would be a further fascinating twist. I’ve spent a lot of time investigating both systems; in so far as musical harmony is the core metaphor, they both seem to resolve together. But I agree that the eastern system emphasizes diversity more (at least in the classical period). Heraclitus said “out of discord comes the fairest harmony”, which is suggestive how economic competition produces economic harmony.

dr_dshiv 5y ago

And, in 1851, Abraham Lincoln’s chief economic advisor, Henry Charles Carey, published his own book on economic harmony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Charles_Carey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Charles_Carey Carey used harmony to refer to many phenomena, like how increased worker wages leads to benefits for owners. It’s lovely stuff. This systems-level beauty seems absent from contemporary economic schools of thought.

sonofhans 5y ago
> systems-level beauty I’m sorry, I can’t hear you over the hordes screaming “SHAREHOLDER VALUE!” I agree with you, FWIW, and think you put it in a nice way.

TacticalCoder 5y ago

Wait... The word "harmonious" has been used once in two different translations to english, and so suddenly Bastiat has an ideology close to the one of communist china!?

rsj_hn 5y ago
Yes! Everything that can be reduced to a word cloud will be reduced to a word cloud. Then, those things that can't be reduced to a word cloud will be reduced anyways, and no one will know the better, since word cloud comparisons is what they'll check.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  It is not a matter of translation. This isn’t a “word cloud”: “freedom is the most beautiful of social harmonies; fairness is the best policy. Christianity introduced the great principle of human brotherhood into the world. It is addressed to the heart, to the feeling, to the noble instincts. Political economy comes to make cold reason accept the same principle, and, showing the linkage of effects to causes, reconciles, in a consoling agreement, the calculations of the most vigilant interest with the inspirations of the most gorgeous.” http://bastiat.org/fr/conclusion_eo_harmonies.html http://bastiat.org/fr/conclusion_eo_harmonies.html
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    It is, in fact, nothing more than a word cloud. To prove this, I note that all you do is put quotes side by side that have some key words in common. You have not managed to describe Bastiat's economic theory or compare/contrast it with any other theory's core beliefs. The passage you cite is a generic flourish that contains no economic content. So this is literally a word cloud argument with two out of context sentences in completely different economic paradigms.
    - dr_dshiv 5y ago
      I’ve given key quotes with content that reflects the main idea of his final book. You’ve made a hand wavy dismissal with no content. Feel free to actually read his book so you know what I’m talking about. Note I’m not claiming that Bastiat was a communist; rather that the aims of communism may be best served by markets. Because harmony is viewed as a common value, which should be fascinating. But I don’t need to argue if you are already decided.
      - rsj_hn 5y ago
        These are not "key quotes". First, you don't analyze someone with key quotes but with key ideas. You explain the key ideas by supporting them with quotes. There is no essential or distinguishing idea here. And the cited quotes are rather formulaic for the genre, containing no substance, which is why you can find them in a variety of writers that share nothing in common except for subject matter. You might as well say there is a lot of commonality between the governmental structures of North Korea and England becase there are key quotes using the word "democratic" or "people".
dr_dshiv 5y ago
It’s not a matter of translation, it’s right there in the French (Harmonies économiques). He investigates why market societies tend to form into harmonious systems or organized wholes. He uses the word “harmony” extensively throughout the book and specifically in relation to the Pythagorean “harmony of the spheres”. And, yes, with his magnum opus he does suddenly end up having principles much closer to those of Communist China. Are you offended? This quote of Bastiat might put things in perspective: “It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.” Markets may be the best way to serve the needs of society. But the point—even for Bastiat!—is to serve the needs of society. Is that shocking?

kgwgk 5y ago

Is the philosophy of Communist China to advance a harmonious society by letting individual’s “interests, left to themselves, tend to harmonious combinations”? Bastiat claims that liberty leads to harmony and those seeking the latter should embrace the former!

dr_dshiv 5y ago
> Bastiat claims that liberty leads to harmony and those seeking the latter should embrace the former! Precisely!
- kgwgk 5y ago
  Ok, the philosophy of every political movement is close then. All talk about doing what is best for the people. (And, if anything, this connects the philosophy of Communist China to the philosophy of capitalism. Mao was born well after Bastiat’s death.)
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    Well, it is actually the connection between Classical Chinese philosophy (Confucius & Lao Tse) and Classical Western philosophy (Pythagoras and Plato). That’s where the idea of harmony came from, for the Chinese govt and Bastiat, respectively.
    - kgwgk 5y ago
      I find that the CPC’s idea the of social harmony seems closer to the Western pre-determined / dialectic conception and the liberal idea closer to the emergent / diversity view of the Eastern tradition.
      - dr_dshiv 5y ago
        That would be a further fascinating twist. I’ve spent a lot of time investigating both systems; in so far as musical harmony is the core metaphor, they both seem to resolve together. But I agree that the eastern system emphasizes diversity more (at least in the classical period). Heraclitus said “out of discord comes the fairest harmony”, which is suggestive how economic competition produces economic harmony.