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> The left believes compassion, ideals, rational argument, and consideration of material self-interest My goodness.. this comment is so full of itself I can't

> The left believes compassion, ideals, rational argument, and consideration of material self-interest My goodness.. this comment is so full of itself I can't even. Yes, us right wingers believe it's good to be uncompassionate. > they write endless tracts trying to prove their point, appealing to science and founding principles and so forth And yet, most left wingers are so disconnected from the reality of people on the ground it's frightening. For example, Portland decided to encourage blacks to get vaccinated by putting ads of black drag queens up. I can't think of anything stupider than the disconnect of left wing pundits from material reality. > The left doesn't care if Trump insults them. It only has any bearing if it leads to policy changes they hate The left screamed for years about Trump's manner of speech (not his content, simple the manner). For example, Trump's big talk on immigration through the southern border was met with outright hostility, despite the current administration now keeping the EXACT same plan (the remain in mexico policy). Or, for example, when Trump insulted Antifa, we had to hear on end how Antifa was just an idea, and how being against Antifa means you're a fascist or something.

DFHippie 5y ago
> Portland decided to encourage blacks to get vaccinated by putting ads of black drag queens up. This is called nutpicking. You claim this example is representative (and you claim you have adequately represented who did what for what purpose). I claim it is confirmation bias. We could settle this with statistics. > The left screamed for years about Trump's manner of speech (not his content, simple the manner). For example, Trump's big talk on immigration through the southern border was met with outright hostility, despite the current administration now keeping the EXACT same plan (the remain in mexico policy). Or, for example, when Trump insulted Antifa, we had to hear on end how Antifa was just an idea, and how being against Antifa means you're a fascist or something. Setting aside your characterization, which again I believe is self-serving and inaccurate, the point is the left weren't upset at being insulted, they were upset that Trump was using lies to justify harmful policy and to promote vigilante violence against various groups the right hates, including, strangely, anti-fascists. You haven't actually addressed this point. Perhaps I wasn't clear, so, to restate my thesis: the right cares a lot more about contempt than the left. It bothers everyone to be insulted, but it bothers the right a lot more, to the point that revenge is more important to many of them than any policy goal. The right assumes the left thinks like them and acts accordingly. The left assumes the right thinks like them and acts accordingly. Each side misinterprets the other. Though, again, I don't think this is symmetrical either. I think the right misunderstands the left more than the reverse. So, for instance, the right assumes that the positions people on the left take are insincere "virtue signaling" because they can't believe someone would sincerely hold these positions. The left knows that arguing policy with statistics, studies, and appeals to claimed national values isn't going to work with most of the right, but they don't really have a better strategy.
- eropple 5y ago
  > the right assumes that the positions people on the left take are insincere "virtue signaling" because they can't believe someone would sincerely hold these positions. The left knows that arguing policy with statistics, studies, and appeals to claimed national values isn't going to work with most of the right, but they don't really have a better strategy. This is one of the more beautifully succinct ways I know of to describe this. The moral hole of the right wing (and, well, I'm sure 'iammisc will again rend their shirt, but I've read their comment history and I've spent plenty of time in that swamp more generally, I'm confident in my assessment on both scales) is such that it assumes their opposite numbers must share it because there is no way their epistemic closure can countenance any alternative. And as you say, the left absolutely understands that pointing out reality won't matter--but lacks the capacity to communicate because to do so abrogates our core values. (There is an obvious path to, say, socialism in America, if it's only for white people. We know, because our right wing like socialism-for-white-people. They will fight their representatives to defend it. It's when other people get hold of it that there are objections. And that's a bridge we certainly won't cross for them.) The divide is inescapable. For a while we could hope that kids wouldn't share their parents' behavior, but--well. Gamergate happened, the MRA movement happened, and they funneled their dupes straight into the machine. It is sad.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    As a former liberal, I'm not rending anything. I just no longer buy the prevailing liberal narratives. Only extremists describe those they disagree with as immoral people. I would never think that of my liberal friends or family. Misguided? Yes. Misinformed? Sometimes. Evil? Not any more than anyone else. It's the last point most leftists fail to understand in their zealotry.
dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. I realize the topic has a lot of ideological overlap, but that makes it more important to avoid flamewar and stay focused on what's intellectually interesting and curious. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

DFHippie 5y ago

> Portland decided to encourage blacks to get vaccinated by putting ads of black drag queens up. This is called nutpicking. You claim this example is representative (and you claim you have adequately represented who did what for what purpose). I claim it is confirmation bias. We could settle this with statistics. > The left screamed for years about Trump's manner of speech (not his content, simple the manner). For example, Trump's big talk on immigration through the southern border was met with outright hostility, despite the current administration now keeping the EXACT same plan (the remain in mexico policy). Or, for example, when Trump insulted Antifa, we had to hear on end how Antifa was just an idea, and how being against Antifa means you're a fascist or something. Setting aside your characterization, which again I believe is self-serving and inaccurate, the point is the left weren't upset at being insulted, they were upset that Trump was using lies to justify harmful policy and to promote vigilante violence against various groups the right hates, including, strangely, anti-fascists. You haven't actually addressed this point. Perhaps I wasn't clear, so, to restate my thesis: the right cares a lot more about contempt than the left. It bothers everyone to be insulted, but it bothers the right a lot more, to the point that revenge is more important to many of them than any policy goal. The right assumes the left thinks like them and acts accordingly. The left assumes the right thinks like them and acts accordingly. Each side misinterprets the other. Though, again, I don't think this is symmetrical either. I think the right misunderstands the left more than the reverse. So, for instance, the right assumes that the positions people on the left take are insincere "virtue signaling" because they can't believe someone would sincerely hold these positions. The left knows that arguing policy with statistics, studies, and appeals to claimed national values isn't going to work with most of the right, but they don't really have a better strategy.

eropple 5y ago
> the right assumes that the positions people on the left take are insincere "virtue signaling" because they can't believe someone would sincerely hold these positions. The left knows that arguing policy with statistics, studies, and appeals to claimed national values isn't going to work with most of the right, but they don't really have a better strategy. This is one of the more beautifully succinct ways I know of to describe this. The moral hole of the right wing (and, well, I'm sure 'iammisc will again rend their shirt, but I've read their comment history and I've spent plenty of time in that swamp more generally, I'm confident in my assessment on both scales) is such that it assumes their opposite numbers must share it because there is no way their epistemic closure can countenance any alternative. And as you say, the left absolutely understands that pointing out reality won't matter--but lacks the capacity to communicate because to do so abrogates our core values. (There is an obvious path to, say, socialism in America, if it's only for white people. We know, because our right wing like socialism-for-white-people. They will fight their representatives to defend it. It's when other people get hold of it that there are objections. And that's a bridge we certainly won't cross for them.) The divide is inescapable. For a while we could hope that kids wouldn't share their parents' behavior, but--well. Gamergate happened, the MRA movement happened, and they funneled their dupes straight into the machine. It is sad.
- iammisc 5y ago
  As a former liberal, I'm not rending anything. I just no longer buy the prevailing liberal narratives. Only extremists describe those they disagree with as immoral people. I would never think that of my liberal friends or family. Misguided? Yes. Misinformed? Sometimes. Evil? Not any more than anyone else. It's the last point most leftists fail to understand in their zealotry.

dang 5y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. I realize the topic has a lot of ideological overlap, but that makes it more important to avoid flamewar and stay focused on what's intellectually interesting and curious. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html