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I think people are focused on the wrong issue. The fee % is not the problem. The problem is the restriction against using other types of payment processors. I

I think people are focused on the wrong issue. The fee % is not the problem. The problem is the restriction against using other types of payment processors. I am 100% OK with Google, Apple, or whoever charging whatever price they want to charge for using their app store services. They are, after all, providing all of the infrastucture for software delivery, updates, payments, etc. Not to mention giving you access to a massive potential userbase. The problem is them preventing you (the developer) from allowing the user to use other forms of payment processing within the app itself. Apple is the worst offender of this. Google obviously allows side-loading of apps and other app stores for Android while Apple does not. Apple goes so far as to prevent you from linking to a website with an external payment option, or to even suggest in text within your app that there are ways to subscribe/pay outside of the app store. They claim it's about the user experience and security, which is legitimate, but it's almost certainly about keeping those nice profit margins. It's within their right to charge what they want to use their store, but the restrictive nature of not allowing competition is wrong. If Apple would even allow sideloading of apps this wouldn't really be an issue. They could keep things as-is and just tell developers "Don't like the app store rules? That's fine, but you can't list your app here. Good luck in the free market." Because mobile computing has become the primary form of computing for many (most?) people, the fact that these few companies have so much power about what people can and can not do on their own devices is scary. Edit: At a minimum, they could require developers to make all payments available via the official app store payment platform, in addition to any other types of payment processing they want to do. This would let the customer decide and would get rid of any regulatory concerns about monopolies. And you know what? I bet most customers would still pay via the official app store/play store payment method, but at least the other options are there. I also think the policy of not allowing apps from outside the app store to be installed is insane. It's your device, you should be able to use it how you want to.

weyland108 5y ago
As a iOS user I feel safer that all payments go through apple. I am assured of certain level of privacy and security which is very comforting.
- mattnewton 5y ago
  Why not just require whether or not it is going through apple to be prominently displayed, and you can only use the apple App Store then, and allow other people to use other payment processors if they trust them?
- dcchambers 5y ago
  I think the solution is for Apple to require that all payments at least have the option of being made through the app store payment system, while allowing developers that want to take the time and effort to set up outside payments do that as well. Consumers can continue to use app-store payments if they wish (and I bet the vast majority would), but developers and companies can no longer complain about Apple's monopoly over payment processing.
  - vanattab 5y ago
    Are you sure they wouldn't considering it would be 15%-20% cheaper?
    - dcchambers 5y ago
      Who is to say the developer would charge less? Let's say, for example, a company called ezpay charges $1 per transaction. If an IAP costs $10, the dev makes $7 off the user who buys via Apple, and $9 off the user that buys via ezpay API in the app. They could lower the ezpay price to $8 and still only make $7, but why bother?
      - Gigachad 5y ago
        Because another company will offer the same product for slightly cheaper now that their fees are lower. Google One already charges you less if you subscribe via web or android. They just haven't been allowed to advertise this fact in the iOS app.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
realusername 5y ago
I want it one step further, it's not called "sideloading" but just "normal install", people should be able to install anything they want without some unwanted middleman, all the restrictions are just market distortions.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Denzel 5y ago
  > people should be able to install anything they want without some unwanted middleman What “people” are you referring to? The millions of people, like yours truly, who’ve made the conscious decision to pay Apple because of their App Store model. I’m an engineer, I have a desktop and a laptop I can install whatever I want on. I’m ok with not doing that on my phone. In fact, I don’t want that experience on my phone. So, I don’t understand when others speak for “people” like me who’ve voiced their opinion via purchase. There’s a long list of moments where I’ve been over-the-moon, downright happy with Apple’s payment and subscription experience. It’s been a breath of fresh air vs. dealing with independent providers where, oh, I have to cancel by calling your customer support center? Oh, no, you need me to send an email instead? With a photo of my ID? Oh, you accidentally continued charging me because the subscription wasn’t canceled? That’s ok, but why did you double the price of the subscription without so much as an email notifying me? Oh, you sent an email titled “Thanks for being a customer” and buried it in the addendum, gotcha. Yeah, I’m ok, I’ll stick with Apple’s payments and subscriptions system on my phone. Those are all real experiences, by the way, that I’m happy to say I haven’t had with Apple for the past decade.
  - ajconway 5y ago
    This can be easily resolved by forcing developers who provide their own method of payment to also include the App Store's default in-app purchases. That's how it currently works with Sign in with Apple.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    Some people went with Apple in spite of their closed App Store model. They might have well not wanted it, but other advantages of iPhones won out for reasons that will remain their own. As a reminder, Android requires manually ticking a checkbox before allowing sideloading. Sideloading is a choice, not a requirement. If you don't want to do it, don't enable it.
anxrn 5y ago
Reminder that Jobs initially did not support having an app store at all for the original iPhone, IIRC for reasons of maintaining the bar on experience. His proposal was to build "apps" for use in Safari. https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/10/the-revolution-steve-jobs-resisted-apples-app-store-marks-10-years-of-third-party-innovation https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/10/the-revolution-st...
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  That was because their iOS API wasn't ready for public consumption. Web apps were a stopgap so they had something to ship.
  - marcellus23 5y ago
    No, Jobs actually didn't want an App Store. He had to be convinced.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      I'd really love to know his mindset, because it's completely unfathomable to me. The idea of applications on the phone was something blindingly obvious to me ever since my first Nokia 3410 I had as a kid. The phone had a bunch of distinct functionalities other than making calls, which you could invoke through a menu. Why shouldn't I be able to add new ones? Write new ones myself? Installing custom software was later normalized when phones gained ability to run J2ME applets. By the time iPhone was conceived, it was an expected feature.
      - hehetrthrthrjn 5y ago
        > I'd really love to know his mindset, because it's completely unfathomable to me. He was fixated on having complete control.
        hbn 5y ago
        And why would webapps give Apple complete control? Someone develops a webapp, I can make my own phone and anyone who wants to continue using all the webapps they were using in Safari on their iPhone can come over and do that in the browser on my phone. People develop native apps for the iPhone, and suddenly leaving the iPhone means leaving behind all those apps.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
8note 5y ago
Control over payment flow is already in the right place imo, though I think the charges should be per transaction flat rates and not % based. App developers are bad actors and should not be trusted to control payment information, refund policies, or subscription management. They will abuse all of them, and they already abuse the limited tools they have for in app payments. Payment flow needs to be controlled by an entity that is trying to protect the buyer, not the developer
- enragedcacti 5y ago
  If only Apple would protect us from the thousands of bad actor developers selling physical goods that they give free reign to take our credit card information and abuse it however they please.
pornel 5y ago
And Apple likes to pretend that there are no better payment options. I would prefer to subscribe via PayPal, because it's easier to cancel via them than via Apple's iTunes corpse.
- criddell 5y ago
  The reason I vastly prefer paying via Apple over other methods is precisely because of how easy it is for me to see my subscriptions in one place and cancel with a click.
  - what_ever 5y ago
    I guess one can have subscriptions outside of iOS?
- CountSessine 5y ago
  I don’t understand? Settings -> AppleID -> Subscriptions? It’s on your phone? You don’t have to use iTunes at all? I wouldn’t have even thought to use iTunes? Unsubscribing is the easiest thing in the world - much easier than PayPal. It’s right there in the Settings app.
  - leucineleprec0n 5y ago
    Dude it’s like some ancient web UI despite existing in the native settings software, it’s utterly slow as fuck to load and only faintly responsive to touch. It is clearly a deliberate ploy by Cupertino. Or in practice, an update is “not on the agenda this cycle”
    - CountSessine 5y ago
      I am so humour-impaired I initially responded seriously to your joke - sorry!
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - 5y ago
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
In an alternate universe these app "stores" operate the same as package managers on Linux do. No account necessary.
- leucineleprec0n 5y ago
  God willing.
neximo64 5y ago
And how would it be enforced? (If charged outside of the app store and get an invoice from google instead on their cut)
- gberger 5y ago
  Why should Google get a cut for a payment made outside of their app store?
v7p1Qbt1im 5y ago
Apple now moved on this by the smallest possible amount. They‘ll allow media apps (like Netflix and Spotify) to link to their own payment system on the web. Though the details aren‘t quite clear afaik.
willseth 5y ago
> The problem is them preventing you (the developer) from allowing the user to use other forms of payment processing within the app itself. One major kink in this idea is that it breaks the free tier model, since paid apps are essentially subsidizing free ones. If you can use any payment processor in-app, then developers will make their apps nominally "free" for App Store purposes, and then use the payment processor of their choice in-app, circumventing Apple's ability to collect any fee whatsoever. So how do you address this problem without charging every developer, even if they were otherwise willing to give away their app?
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  They would still be required to report that they have in-app purchases, just like they are currently required to report they have ads, even if they aren't using Apple's or Google's ad APIs.
  - willseth 5y ago
    This is the only reasonable suggestion I've heard, but it's still very messy because it would not only require even more careful policing of app code, but mostly because Apple would have to invent an entirely new fee structure for apps under this umbrella. I think to do it fairly it would just end up looking like an AWS bill.
- fyzix 5y ago
  An Apple developer account costs $100 per year and with 20Million registered developers. $2B a year is more than enough to host an appstore. Or they can compete in the free market and offer their payment gateway for a competitive fee, or they can do what google is doing and allow third party app installs.
- bww 5y ago
  If Apple allowed developers to keep 100% of revenue from App Store transactions while Apple continued to pay for all the operating costs it would still, undoubtedly, work out greatly to Apple's advantage. They derive enormous value from having apps in their store creating value for their platforms. Of course, they would not be satisfied with that arrangement because no company has ever been satisfied with making a ton of money if it is possible for them to make some more. But that certainly doesn't mean the model can't work or that if there were regulation to this effect that it wouldn't still be in Apple's enormous interest to continue to operate the App Store.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
summerlight 5y ago
> I think people are focused on the wrong issue. The fee % is not the problem. The problem is the restriction against using other types of payment processors. I generally agree with this sentiment, but still feel that the fee % itself is a significant part of the problem and worth to tackle it in parallel. My concern is that Google/Apple have lots of direct/indirect advantages against its payment competitors as platform holders and I'm 90% sure that they're willing to exercise that position to keep the dominance of their payment solutions. And I think they have a good chance of winning. We need to push them in all possible directions even if some approaches don't work.
tiffanyh 5y ago
Devils Advocate: if I’m a widget manufacturer selling my product on Walmart.com or even the brick & mortar store - do I have a say in what payment method can be used to buy my product?
- felipelemos 5y ago
  You can sell it in other stores as well, can't you?
  - tiffanyh 5y ago
    Yep, I can sell it on myWidget.com or at another store. So how is this different than App Store policies?
    - ithinkso 5y ago
      Can you sell it on myWidgetAppStore? Can someone install myWidgetAppStore that sells apps? (the way I can visit myWidget.com if I don't want to use Walmart.com, because Safari doesn't block other websites but iOS blocks other appstores)
      - tiffanyh 5y ago
        If I own an XBox, can I buy a game digitally anywhere expect from XBox own App Store? If I own a TiVo, can I install an app from anywhere other than TiVo App Store? And if you did, there’s plenty of examples where it would void your warranty. Eg John Deere, Tesla, etc can only be serviced by the manufacturer otherwise it void warranty.
        ithinkso 5y ago
        Yup, same exact problems as with App Store on iOS, I think you got it!
        snuxoll 5y ago
        > And if you did, there’s plenty of examples where it would void your warranty. Eg John Deere, Tesla, etc can only be serviced by the manufacturer otherwise it void warranty. Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act says otherwise.

weyland108 5y ago

As a iOS user I feel safer that all payments go through apple. I am assured of certain level of privacy and security which is very comforting.

mattnewton 5y ago
Why not just require whether or not it is going through apple to be prominently displayed, and you can only use the apple App Store then, and allow other people to use other payment processors if they trust them?
dcchambers 5y ago
I think the solution is for Apple to require that all payments at least have the option of being made through the app store payment system, while allowing developers that want to take the time and effort to set up outside payments do that as well. Consumers can continue to use app-store payments if they wish (and I bet the vast majority would), but developers and companies can no longer complain about Apple's monopoly over payment processing.
- vanattab 5y ago
  Are you sure they wouldn't considering it would be 15%-20% cheaper?
  - dcchambers 5y ago
    Who is to say the developer would charge less? Let's say, for example, a company called ezpay charges $1 per transaction. If an IAP costs $10, the dev makes $7 off the user who buys via Apple, and $9 off the user that buys via ezpay API in the app. They could lower the ezpay price to $8 and still only make $7, but why bother?
    - Gigachad 5y ago
      Because another company will offer the same product for slightly cheaper now that their fees are lower. Google One already charges you less if you subscribe via web or android. They just haven't been allowed to advertise this fact in the iOS app.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

realusername 5y ago

I want it one step further, it's not called "sideloading" but just "normal install", people should be able to install anything they want without some unwanted middleman, all the restrictions are just market distortions.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Denzel 5y ago
> people should be able to install anything they want without some unwanted middleman What “people” are you referring to? The millions of people, like yours truly, who’ve made the conscious decision to pay Apple because of their App Store model. I’m an engineer, I have a desktop and a laptop I can install whatever I want on. I’m ok with not doing that on my phone. In fact, I don’t want that experience on my phone. So, I don’t understand when others speak for “people” like me who’ve voiced their opinion via purchase. There’s a long list of moments where I’ve been over-the-moon, downright happy with Apple’s payment and subscription experience. It’s been a breath of fresh air vs. dealing with independent providers where, oh, I have to cancel by calling your customer support center? Oh, no, you need me to send an email instead? With a photo of my ID? Oh, you accidentally continued charging me because the subscription wasn’t canceled? That’s ok, but why did you double the price of the subscription without so much as an email notifying me? Oh, you sent an email titled “Thanks for being a customer” and buried it in the addendum, gotcha. Yeah, I’m ok, I’ll stick with Apple’s payments and subscriptions system on my phone. Those are all real experiences, by the way, that I’m happy to say I haven’t had with Apple for the past decade.
- ajconway 5y ago
  This can be easily resolved by forcing developers who provide their own method of payment to also include the App Store's default in-app purchases. That's how it currently works with Sign in with Apple.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  Some people went with Apple in spite of their closed App Store model. They might have well not wanted it, but other advantages of iPhones won out for reasons that will remain their own. As a reminder, Android requires manually ticking a checkbox before allowing sideloading. Sideloading is a choice, not a requirement. If you don't want to do it, don't enable it.

anxrn 5y ago

Reminder that Jobs initially did not support having an app store at all for the original iPhone, IIRC for reasons of maintaining the bar on experience. His proposal was to build "apps" for use in Safari. https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/10/the-revolution-steve-jobs-resisted-apples-app-store-marks-10-years-of-third-party-innovation https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/10/the-revolution-st...

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
That was because their iOS API wasn't ready for public consumption. Web apps were a stopgap so they had something to ship.
- marcellus23 5y ago
  No, Jobs actually didn't want an App Store. He had to be convinced.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    I'd really love to know his mindset, because it's completely unfathomable to me. The idea of applications on the phone was something blindingly obvious to me ever since my first Nokia 3410 I had as a kid. The phone had a bunch of distinct functionalities other than making calls, which you could invoke through a menu. Why shouldn't I be able to add new ones? Write new ones myself? Installing custom software was later normalized when phones gained ability to run J2ME applets. By the time iPhone was conceived, it was an expected feature.
    - hehetrthrthrjn 5y ago
      > I'd really love to know his mindset, because it's completely unfathomable to me. He was fixated on having complete control.
      - hbn 5y ago
        And why would webapps give Apple complete control? Someone develops a webapp, I can make my own phone and anyone who wants to continue using all the webapps they were using in Safari on their iPhone can come over and do that in the browser on my phone. People develop native apps for the iPhone, and suddenly leaving the iPhone means leaving behind all those apps.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

8note 5y ago

Control over payment flow is already in the right place imo, though I think the charges should be per transaction flat rates and not % based. App developers are bad actors and should not be trusted to control payment information, refund policies, or subscription management. They will abuse all of them, and they already abuse the limited tools they have for in app payments. Payment flow needs to be controlled by an entity that is trying to protect the buyer, not the developer

enragedcacti 5y ago
If only Apple would protect us from the thousands of bad actor developers selling physical goods that they give free reign to take our credit card information and abuse it however they please.

pornel 5y ago

And Apple likes to pretend that there are no better payment options. I would prefer to subscribe via PayPal, because it's easier to cancel via them than via Apple's iTunes corpse.

criddell 5y ago
The reason I vastly prefer paying via Apple over other methods is precisely because of how easy it is for me to see my subscriptions in one place and cancel with a click.
- what_ever 5y ago
  I guess one can have subscriptions outside of iOS?
CountSessine 5y ago
I don’t understand? Settings -> AppleID -> Subscriptions? It’s on your phone? You don’t have to use iTunes at all? I wouldn’t have even thought to use iTunes? Unsubscribing is the easiest thing in the world - much easier than PayPal. It’s right there in the Settings app.
- leucineleprec0n 5y ago
  Dude it’s like some ancient web UI despite existing in the native settings software, it’s utterly slow as fuck to load and only faintly responsive to touch. It is clearly a deliberate ploy by Cupertino. Or in practice, an update is “not on the agenda this cycle”
  - CountSessine 5y ago
    I am so humour-impaired I initially responded seriously to your joke - sorry!
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- 5y ago

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

In an alternate universe these app "stores" operate the same as package managers on Linux do. No account necessary.

leucineleprec0n 5y ago
God willing.

neximo64 5y ago

And how would it be enforced? (If charged outside of the app store and get an invoice from google instead on their cut)

gberger 5y ago
Why should Google get a cut for a payment made outside of their app store?

v7p1Qbt1im 5y ago

Apple now moved on this by the smallest possible amount. They‘ll allow media apps (like Netflix and Spotify) to link to their own payment system on the web. Though the details aren‘t quite clear afaik.

willseth 5y ago

> The problem is them preventing you (the developer) from allowing the user to use other forms of payment processing within the app itself. One major kink in this idea is that it breaks the free tier model, since paid apps are essentially subsidizing free ones. If you can use any payment processor in-app, then developers will make their apps nominally "free" for App Store purposes, and then use the payment processor of their choice in-app, circumventing Apple's ability to collect any fee whatsoever. So how do you address this problem without charging every developer, even if they were otherwise willing to give away their app?

lern_too_spel 5y ago
They would still be required to report that they have in-app purchases, just like they are currently required to report they have ads, even if they aren't using Apple's or Google's ad APIs.
- willseth 5y ago
  This is the only reasonable suggestion I've heard, but it's still very messy because it would not only require even more careful policing of app code, but mostly because Apple would have to invent an entirely new fee structure for apps under this umbrella. I think to do it fairly it would just end up looking like an AWS bill.
fyzix 5y ago
An Apple developer account costs $100 per year and with 20Million registered developers. $2B a year is more than enough to host an appstore. Or they can compete in the free market and offer their payment gateway for a competitive fee, or they can do what google is doing and allow third party app installs.
bww 5y ago
If Apple allowed developers to keep 100% of revenue from App Store transactions while Apple continued to pay for all the operating costs it would still, undoubtedly, work out greatly to Apple's advantage. They derive enormous value from having apps in their store creating value for their platforms. Of course, they would not be satisfied with that arrangement because no company has ever been satisfied with making a ton of money if it is possible for them to make some more. But that certainly doesn't mean the model can't work or that if there were regulation to this effect that it wouldn't still be in Apple's enormous interest to continue to operate the App Store.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

summerlight 5y ago

> I think people are focused on the wrong issue. The fee % is not the problem. The problem is the restriction against using other types of payment processors. I generally agree with this sentiment, but still feel that the fee % itself is a significant part of the problem and worth to tackle it in parallel. My concern is that Google/Apple have lots of direct/indirect advantages against its payment competitors as platform holders and I'm 90% sure that they're willing to exercise that position to keep the dominance of their payment solutions. And I think they have a good chance of winning. We need to push them in all possible directions even if some approaches don't work.

tiffanyh 5y ago

Devils Advocate: if I’m a widget manufacturer selling my product on Walmart.com or even the brick & mortar store - do I have a say in what payment method can be used to buy my product?

felipelemos 5y ago
You can sell it in other stores as well, can't you?
- tiffanyh 5y ago
  Yep, I can sell it on myWidget.com or at another store. So how is this different than App Store policies?
  - ithinkso 5y ago
    Can you sell it on myWidgetAppStore? Can someone install myWidgetAppStore that sells apps? (the way I can visit myWidget.com if I don't want to use Walmart.com, because Safari doesn't block other websites but iOS blocks other appstores)
    - tiffanyh 5y ago
      If I own an XBox, can I buy a game digitally anywhere expect from XBox own App Store? If I own a TiVo, can I install an app from anywhere other than TiVo App Store? And if you did, there’s plenty of examples where it would void your warranty. Eg John Deere, Tesla, etc can only be serviced by the manufacturer otherwise it void warranty.
      - ithinkso 5y ago
        Yup, same exact problems as with App Store on iOS, I think you got it!
      - snuxoll 5y ago
        > And if you did, there’s plenty of examples where it would void your warranty. Eg John Deere, Tesla, etc can only be serviced by the manufacturer otherwise it void warranty. Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act says otherwise.