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I’m sure Tesla has done a good job but it doesn’t make much sense to compare them to the behemoths because it’s much easier to navigate the shortages as a low v

I’m sure Tesla has done a good job but it doesn’t make much sense to compare them to the behemoths because it’s much easier to navigate the shortages as a low volume (but still high priority) manufacturer. If everyone gets shorted 5% of their order for some part, Tesla might have to go source a few tens* of thousands of parts in the gray market to close the shortfall. GM would have to find hundreds of thousands… that amount of product might simply be unavailable.

krasin 5y ago
GM revenue in Q2 2021 was $34.2 billion ([1]). Tesla Q3 2021 revenue is $13.7 billion ([2]). Tesla is still smaller, but it's in the same order of magnitude with GM. 1. https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/emergency_news/2021/earnings/0804-earnings.html https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content... 2. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-q3-2021-earnings-results/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-q3-2021-earnings-result...
- bjd2385 5y ago
  Thanks for providing this context, good to know.
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  With no shortages, GM would be be shipping >2m vehicles / quarter, so it’s about 10x larger. But fair point - Tesla has grown a lot
  - krasin 5y ago
    Before shortages, GM revenue in Q3 2019 was $35.5 billion. A bit more than $34.2 billion in Q2 2021, but very close. Edit. You're right. By the number of cars, there's still an order of magnitude gap (see my other comment). Thank you. 1. https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/gm-reports-income-23b-and-ebit-adj-30b https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/g...
- fhd2 5y ago
  I suppose parent's argument is in relation to number of units produced, not revenue. From a comment below, Toyota sold about 7-8 times as many cars as Tesla on the US market. _Almost_ an order of magnitude, I'd argue.
  - beambot 5y ago
    The fact that Tesla has more revenue per car, higher profit margin per car, and less debt are all benefits -- they can more readily "buy" their way out of supply chain problems compared to others. Combined with more agility, you have a hell of a positive feedback loop. The goal isn't revenue per se. It's kinda like Apple taking 75% of smartphone market's profits despite selling fewer handsets that Samsung.
    - shiftpgdn 5y ago
      Not having to pay dealers $5000/unit for “advertising” also helps Tesla’s bottom line.
  - krasin 5y ago
    That's a fair point. Let's compare: GM sold 7.72 million vehicles in 2019 ([1]), which was before shortages. Tesla will likely ship around 0.9 million of vehicles in 2021. So, yes, the point is correct. There's still an order of magnitude gap between GM and Tesla in regards to number of cars sold. Thank you. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/225326/amount-of-cars-sold-by-general-motors-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/225326/amount-of-cars-so...
    - m_mueller 5y ago
      but still, given the size of Toyota and GM that’s remarkable volume. certainly firmly in the mass manufacturing territory. and then you look at their upcoming additional production capacity - this is still not their end game.
- panick21 5y ago
  Then compare it to BMW, Geely or other manufactures that are more comparable.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
It's not volume, it's vertically integrated agility. Can't get Continental radar hardware anymore? Tesla updates their vehicle software to use vision only. Tesla can't get certain chips? They have motivated engineers (culture!) in house able to refactor the vehicle software to support a new silicon configuration. This is a symptom of legacy automaker stagnation, believing their role is to make a profit from bolting together a bunch of external supplier parts, which works until it doesn't. Their supply chain failure is Tesla's opportunity. This is really no different than SpaceX versus Blue Origin, and how each approaches their culture and management. EDIT (HN throttling, can't reply directly to your comment): @filereaper Musk is an engineer at his core, and sets the culture of his organizations (high expectations but respect for engineering talent). Bezos and Blue Origin are what you'd expect if McKinsey & Company (the consulting firm) were building a space exploration company. Check out upwardbound's comment below, it's spot on, specifically the section on finding talent. @malcolmgreaves: There is a delta between what we believe makes a good engineer.
- mbesto 5y ago
  > It's not volume, it's vertically integrated agility. Can't get Continental radar hardware anymore? Tesla updates their vehicle software to use vision only. Tesla can't get certain chips? They have motivated engineers (culture!) in house able to refactor the vehicle software to support a new silicon configuration. If these are all true, why not implement these your proposed way anyway? There has to be a tradeoff somewhere...
- tyingq 5y ago
  Also probably willingness to not restrict themselves to silicon parts rated for an automotive environment. They did this for the LED display...going with "industrial" vs "automotive". Where industrial has a more narrow acceptable operating temperature range, etc. Probably works fine in a lot of cases, but they are taking on some risk.
  - cyanydeez 5y ago
    also, they probably ignore safety and warrenty pbligations, and abandon repairability because they are still a top end manufacturer
Factorium 5y ago
Tesla just seems to have simpler and better designed vehicles. There are fewer bottlenecks because there is just less stuff in the car. Check out the teardown of the Mach-E Thermal System by Sandy Munro for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1dQtlrI7uU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1dQtlrI7uU The ICE vehicle business model is to treat spare parts and servicing as a profit centre... vehicle designs reflect that.
- robterrell 5y ago
  That video stopped me from putting down a deposit on a Mach-E. Gonna WFH and see how that cooling system pans out over a year or so.
  - imglorp 5y ago
    Will that same system be on the electric F-150?
saasaccount2 5y ago
So true!

krasin 5y ago

GM revenue in Q2 2021 was $34.2 billion ([1]). Tesla Q3 2021 revenue is $13.7 billion ([2]). Tesla is still smaller, but it's in the same order of magnitude with GM. 1. https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/emergency_news/2021/earnings/0804-earnings.html https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content... 2. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-q3-2021-earnings-results/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-q3-2021-earnings-result...

bjd2385 5y ago
Thanks for providing this context, good to know.
xadhominemx 5y ago
With no shortages, GM would be be shipping >2m vehicles / quarter, so it’s about 10x larger. But fair point - Tesla has grown a lot
- krasin 5y ago
  Before shortages, GM revenue in Q3 2019 was $35.5 billion. A bit more than $34.2 billion in Q2 2021, but very close. Edit. You're right. By the number of cars, there's still an order of magnitude gap (see my other comment). Thank you. 1. https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/gm-reports-income-23b-and-ebit-adj-30b https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/g...
fhd2 5y ago
I suppose parent's argument is in relation to number of units produced, not revenue. From a comment below, Toyota sold about 7-8 times as many cars as Tesla on the US market. _Almost_ an order of magnitude, I'd argue.
- beambot 5y ago
  The fact that Tesla has more revenue per car, higher profit margin per car, and less debt are all benefits -- they can more readily "buy" their way out of supply chain problems compared to others. Combined with more agility, you have a hell of a positive feedback loop. The goal isn't revenue per se. It's kinda like Apple taking 75% of smartphone market's profits despite selling fewer handsets that Samsung.
  - shiftpgdn 5y ago
    Not having to pay dealers $5000/unit for “advertising” also helps Tesla’s bottom line.
- krasin 5y ago
  That's a fair point. Let's compare: GM sold 7.72 million vehicles in 2019 ([1]), which was before shortages. Tesla will likely ship around 0.9 million of vehicles in 2021. So, yes, the point is correct. There's still an order of magnitude gap between GM and Tesla in regards to number of cars sold. Thank you. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/225326/amount-of-cars-sold-by-general-motors-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/225326/amount-of-cars-so...
  - m_mueller 5y ago
    but still, given the size of Toyota and GM that’s remarkable volume. certainly firmly in the mass manufacturing territory. and then you look at their upcoming additional production capacity - this is still not their end game.
panick21 5y ago
Then compare it to BMW, Geely or other manufactures that are more comparable.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

It's not volume, it's vertically integrated agility. Can't get Continental radar hardware anymore? Tesla updates their vehicle software to use vision only. Tesla can't get certain chips? They have motivated engineers (culture!) in house able to refactor the vehicle software to support a new silicon configuration. This is a symptom of legacy automaker stagnation, believing their role is to make a profit from bolting together a bunch of external supplier parts, which works until it doesn't. Their supply chain failure is Tesla's opportunity. This is really no different than SpaceX versus Blue Origin, and how each approaches their culture and management. EDIT (HN throttling, can't reply directly to your comment): @filereaper Musk is an engineer at his core, and sets the culture of his organizations (high expectations but respect for engineering talent). Bezos and Blue Origin are what you'd expect if McKinsey & Company (the consulting firm) were building a space exploration company. Check out upwardbound's comment below, it's spot on, specifically the section on finding talent. @malcolmgreaves: There is a delta between what we believe makes a good engineer.

mbesto 5y ago
> It's not volume, it's vertically integrated agility. Can't get Continental radar hardware anymore? Tesla updates their vehicle software to use vision only. Tesla can't get certain chips? They have motivated engineers (culture!) in house able to refactor the vehicle software to support a new silicon configuration. If these are all true, why not implement these your proposed way anyway? There has to be a tradeoff somewhere...
tyingq 5y ago
Also probably willingness to not restrict themselves to silicon parts rated for an automotive environment. They did this for the LED display...going with "industrial" vs "automotive". Where industrial has a more narrow acceptable operating temperature range, etc. Probably works fine in a lot of cases, but they are taking on some risk.
- cyanydeez 5y ago
  also, they probably ignore safety and warrenty pbligations, and abandon repairability because they are still a top end manufacturer

Factorium 5y ago

Tesla just seems to have simpler and better designed vehicles. There are fewer bottlenecks because there is just less stuff in the car. Check out the teardown of the Mach-E Thermal System by Sandy Munro for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1dQtlrI7uU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1dQtlrI7uU The ICE vehicle business model is to treat spare parts and servicing as a profit centre... vehicle designs reflect that.

robterrell 5y ago
That video stopped me from putting down a deposit on a Mach-E. Gonna WFH and see how that cooling system pans out over a year or so.
- imglorp 5y ago
  Will that same system be on the electric F-150?

saasaccount2 5y ago

So true!