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>No, they weren't. In that case, what were they sold as? You already said what they weren't sold as, so now I'd like to know what they were sold as.

by jdhn 5y ago

brandon272 5y ago
They were sold as something that offered excellent but imperfect protection from COVID-19, which they do. If we look at the mainstream media in particular, analysis of the vaccines has ranged from "studies show this is really good" to "studies show this is okay" to "there's still things we don't know". I am aware of no mainstream media, research, government, political or industry sources claiming that the vaccine was some cure with unlimited durability. Happy to review any links to those claims if you have any.
- jdhn 5y ago
  >I am aware of no mainstream media, research, government, political or industry sources claiming that the vaccine was some cure with unlimited durability. Claiming and implying are two different things. It was heavily implied that if you got the vaccine, then you would be able to return to doing things the way you could pre-Covid.
  - brandon272 5y ago
    As rational adults we need to rely more on data and actual claims than vibes we are (mis?)interpreting. When we fail to do so we can't blame others. The data was splashed in front of us. We can't even claim it was hidden. Efficacy and uncertainty regarding how the vaccine would save us from COVID was analyzed in the media at length. Even still, happy to review any links to those implications if you have any because I didn't infer from government/media/research/industry that vaccines were a quick "get out of jail free" card.
    - jdhn 5y ago
      Again, I'm going to ask what were they sold as. You keep saying what they weren't sold as, but have yet to say what they were sold as.
      - brandon272 5y ago
        I answered the question directly in my preceding reply [1]: > They were sold as something that offered excellent but imperfect protection from COVID-19, which they do. If we look at the mainstream media in particular, analysis of the vaccines has ranged from "studies show this is really good" to "studies show this is okay" to "there's still things we don't know". [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28947586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28947586
- charbonneau2 5y ago
  NYTimes, June 28, 2021 [1]: > Pfizer and Moderna Vaccines Likely to Produce Lasting Immunity, Study Finds > The vaccines made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna set off a persistent immune reaction in the body that may protect against the coronavirus for years, scientists reported on Monday. > Exactly how long the protection from mRNA vaccines will last is hard to predict. In the absence of variants that sidestep immunity, in theory immunity could last a lifetime, experts said. But the virus is clearly evolving. > “Anything that would actually require a booster would be variant-based, not based on waning of immunity,” Dr. Bhattacharya said. “I just don’t see that happening.” Pfizer, September 17, 2021 [2]: > A retrospective cohort study conducted at Kaiser Permanente Southern California suggests that the observed erosion in vaccine effectiveness is likely primarily due to waning effectiveness rather than due to Delta escaping vaccine protection [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/28/health/coronavirus-vaccines-immunity.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/28/health/coronavirus-vaccin... [2] https://www.fda.gov/media/152161/download https://www.fda.gov/media/152161/download
  - brandon272 5y ago
    CNN, July 9, 2021 [1]: > Drugmaker Pfizer said Thursday it is seeing waning immunity from its coronavirus vaccine and says it is picking up its efforts to develop a booster dose that will protect people from variants. Axios, May 19, 2021 [2]: > “The data that I see coming, they are supporting the notion that likely there will be a need for a booster somewhere between 8 and 12 months.” – Pfizer CEO Marketwatch, May 25, 2021 [3] > Moderna and Pfizer are already developing COVID-19 vaccine boosters. Do we need a third shot? > Vaccine makers say immunity to the virus can begin to wane after six or eight months. > It looks like Americans may need to roll up their sleeves for a COVID-19 booster shot, though vaccine makers and federal officials are still trying to detect how long immunity to the virus lasts. > The COVID-19 vaccines developed by these companies, as well as the Johnson & Johnson — the third vaccine to be authorized in the U.S. — are all considered very effective, especially when it comes to preventing hospitalization and death, but it’s still unknown how long they can protect people against the virus. [1]https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/health/pfizer-waning-immunity-bn/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/health/pfizer-waning-immunity... [2]https://www.axios.com/axios-event-fauci-pfizer-vaccine-road-ahead-b51e0c45-ffff-4491-969b-0b23b6fc3211.html https://www.axios.com/axios-event-fauci-pfizer-vaccine-road-... [3]https://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-we-need-covid-19-booster-shots-increasingly-the-expectation-is-yes-11621956459 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-we-need-covid-19-boos... Seems to underscore my point that the available information about immunity longevity is mixed at best. No one following the news and research in good faith believes that there was any solemn promise made about never needing boosters or never having immunity wane. We've had studies that show a wide variety of different results and insights (to be expected), the preponderance of which has supported the idea that these vaccines do NOT have unlimited durability and that boosters would be needed.

>No, they weren't. In that case, what were they sold as? You already said what they weren't sold as, so now I'd like to know what they were sold as.

by jdhn 5y ago

>No, they weren't. In that case, what were they sold as? You already said what they weren't sold as, so now I'd like to know what they were sold as.

brandon272 5y ago

They were sold as something that offered excellent but imperfect protection from COVID-19, which they do. If we look at the mainstream media in particular, analysis of the vaccines has ranged from "studies show this is really good" to "studies show this is okay" to "there's still things we don't know". I am aware of no mainstream media, research, government, political or industry sources claiming that the vaccine was some cure with unlimited durability. Happy to review any links to those claims if you have any.

jdhn 5y ago
>I am aware of no mainstream media, research, government, political or industry sources claiming that the vaccine was some cure with unlimited durability. Claiming and implying are two different things. It was heavily implied that if you got the vaccine, then you would be able to return to doing things the way you could pre-Covid.
- brandon272 5y ago
  As rational adults we need to rely more on data and actual claims than vibes we are (mis?)interpreting. When we fail to do so we can't blame others. The data was splashed in front of us. We can't even claim it was hidden. Efficacy and uncertainty regarding how the vaccine would save us from COVID was analyzed in the media at length. Even still, happy to review any links to those implications if you have any because I didn't infer from government/media/research/industry that vaccines were a quick "get out of jail free" card.
  - jdhn 5y ago
    Again, I'm going to ask what were they sold as. You keep saying what they weren't sold as, but have yet to say what they were sold as.
    - brandon272 5y ago
      I answered the question directly in my preceding reply [1]: > They were sold as something that offered excellent but imperfect protection from COVID-19, which they do. If we look at the mainstream media in particular, analysis of the vaccines has ranged from "studies show this is really good" to "studies show this is okay" to "there's still things we don't know". [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28947586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28947586
charbonneau2 5y ago
NYTimes, June 28, 2021 [1]: > Pfizer and Moderna Vaccines Likely to Produce Lasting Immunity, Study Finds > The vaccines made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna set off a persistent immune reaction in the body that may protect against the coronavirus for years, scientists reported on Monday. > Exactly how long the protection from mRNA vaccines will last is hard to predict. In the absence of variants that sidestep immunity, in theory immunity could last a lifetime, experts said. But the virus is clearly evolving. > “Anything that would actually require a booster would be variant-based, not based on waning of immunity,” Dr. Bhattacharya said. “I just don’t see that happening.” Pfizer, September 17, 2021 [2]: > A retrospective cohort study conducted at Kaiser Permanente Southern California suggests that the observed erosion in vaccine effectiveness is likely primarily due to waning effectiveness rather than due to Delta escaping vaccine protection [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/28/health/coronavirus-vaccines-immunity.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/28/health/coronavirus-vaccin... [2] https://www.fda.gov/media/152161/download https://www.fda.gov/media/152161/download
- brandon272 5y ago
  CNN, July 9, 2021 [1]: > Drugmaker Pfizer said Thursday it is seeing waning immunity from its coronavirus vaccine and says it is picking up its efforts to develop a booster dose that will protect people from variants. Axios, May 19, 2021 [2]: > “The data that I see coming, they are supporting the notion that likely there will be a need for a booster somewhere between 8 and 12 months.” – Pfizer CEO Marketwatch, May 25, 2021 [3] > Moderna and Pfizer are already developing COVID-19 vaccine boosters. Do we need a third shot? > Vaccine makers say immunity to the virus can begin to wane after six or eight months. > It looks like Americans may need to roll up their sleeves for a COVID-19 booster shot, though vaccine makers and federal officials are still trying to detect how long immunity to the virus lasts. > The COVID-19 vaccines developed by these companies, as well as the Johnson & Johnson — the third vaccine to be authorized in the U.S. — are all considered very effective, especially when it comes to preventing hospitalization and death, but it’s still unknown how long they can protect people against the virus. [1]https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/health/pfizer-waning-immunity-bn/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/health/pfizer-waning-immunity... [2]https://www.axios.com/axios-event-fauci-pfizer-vaccine-road-ahead-b51e0c45-ffff-4491-969b-0b23b6fc3211.html https://www.axios.com/axios-event-fauci-pfizer-vaccine-road-... [3]https://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-we-need-covid-19-booster-shots-increasingly-the-expectation-is-yes-11621956459 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-we-need-covid-19-boos... Seems to underscore my point that the available information about immunity longevity is mixed at best. No one following the news and research in good faith believes that there was any solemn promise made about never needing boosters or never having immunity wane. We've had studies that show a wide variety of different results and insights (to be expected), the preponderance of which has supported the idea that these vaccines do NOT have unlimited durability and that boosters would be needed.