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>The vaccines were never sold as something that would stop the virus in its tracks with only half the population vaccinated. They were sold as a cure that woul

by jdhn 5y ago

>The vaccines were never sold as something that would stop the virus in its tracks with only half the population vaccinated. They were sold as a cure that would allow the person who received the vaccine to go back to pre-covid times because they were protected. Now you have states like California mandating masks indoors even for vaccinated people, which goes against what everyone was told earlier this year. For those who are hesitant towards getting the shot, how would this make them any less hesitant?

brandon272 5y ago
> They were sold as a cure that would allow the person who received the vaccine to go back to pre-covid times because they were protected. No, they weren't. Perhaps some people chose to believe that's what the vaccines would offer but that's not what was sold in the media, governments or pharmaceutical companies. No one was calling it a cure. Effectively what some people are arguing is that they assumed that because the vaccines were miraculous (which they are), that they believed that they would offer complete,1 100% protection from infection and that people could return to normal. At some point in time personal responsibility has to come into play. The data has been available about vaccine effectiveness from early on. Something can be extremely effective but not be perfect. Some people seem not to be able to wrap their heads around that, adn when confronted with it, claim they're being scammed.
- jdhn 5y ago
  >No, they weren't. In that case, what were they sold as? You already said what they weren't sold as, so now I'd like to know what they were sold as.
  - brandon272 5y ago
    They were sold as something that offered excellent but imperfect protection from COVID-19, which they do. If we look at the mainstream media in particular, analysis of the vaccines has ranged from "studies show this is really good" to "studies show this is okay" to "there's still things we don't know". I am aware of no mainstream media, research, government, political or industry sources claiming that the vaccine was some cure with unlimited durability. Happy to review any links to those claims if you have any.
    - jdhn 5y ago
      >I am aware of no mainstream media, research, government, political or industry sources claiming that the vaccine was some cure with unlimited durability. Claiming and implying are two different things. It was heavily implied that if you got the vaccine, then you would be able to return to doing things the way you could pre-Covid.
      - brandon272 5y ago
        As rational adults we need to rely more on data and actual claims than vibes we are (mis?)interpreting. When we fail to do so we can't blame others. The data was splashed in front of us. We can't even claim it was hidden. Efficacy and uncertainty regarding how the vaccine would save us from COVID was analyzed in the media at length. Even still, happy to review any links to those implications if you have any because I didn't infer from government/media/research/industry that vaccines were a quick "get out of jail free" card.
        jdhn 5y ago
        Again, I'm going to ask what were they sold as. You keep saying what they weren't sold as, but have yet to say what they were sold as.
        brandon272 5y ago
        I answered the question directly in my preceding reply [1]: > They were sold as something that offered excellent but imperfect protection from COVID-19, which they do. If we look at the mainstream media in particular, analysis of the vaccines has ranged from "studies show this is really good" to "studies show this is okay" to "there's still things we don't know". [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28947586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28947586
    - charbonneau2 5y ago
      NYTimes, June 28, 2021 [1]: > Pfizer and Moderna Vaccines Likely to Produce Lasting Immunity, Study Finds > The vaccines made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna set off a persistent immune reaction in the body that may protect against the coronavirus for years, scientists reported on Monday. > Exactly how long the protection from mRNA vaccines will last is hard to predict. In the absence of variants that sidestep immunity, in theory immunity could last a lifetime, experts said. But the virus is clearly evolving. > “Anything that would actually require a booster would be variant-based, not based on waning of immunity,” Dr. Bhattacharya said. “I just don’t see that happening.” Pfizer, September 17, 2021 [2]: > A retrospective cohort study conducted at Kaiser Permanente Southern California suggests that the observed erosion in vaccine effectiveness is likely primarily due to waning effectiveness rather than due to Delta escaping vaccine protection [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/28/health/coronavirus-vaccines-immunity.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/28/health/coronavirus-vaccin... [2] https://www.fda.gov/media/152161/download https://www.fda.gov/media/152161/download
- stevenicr 5y ago
  This is an interesting set of thoughts here and I would love to delve deeper into this with actual news stories and speeches and polling of people who have beliefs of different sides of this. At the moment I am leaning towards disagreeing, I do feel that they have been sold and over-sold as the cure for x y and z - and those who do not get the shots are the reason that x y and z are not a thing for all of yous that are doing your part. I've been watching the news (many sources) on this very closely for a while now, so I can say I am pretty confident in how I feel it's been sold - but I don't have a way to poll people at the moment to see how they've been actually sold on all of it - thought anecdotally I can say I've seen a few who parrot what their tribal others have been saying - so half have been sold one way - little less than half the other perhaps. I can also see how it could be said that you are not wrong - that 'technically' most the news stores and speeches did not actually say it's a cure - technically what they said was 'this is the best way to get ...' or whatever - but the overwhelming slew of additional opinion stuff thrown around the discussions seemed to allude that if everyone gets a couple of shots this thing goes away and all goes back to normal.. and I'm not sure I'm sold on that at this point, but I do think that's what lots of people have been trying to sell everyone on.

by jdhn 5y ago

brandon272 5y ago

> They were sold as a cure that would allow the person who received the vaccine to go back to pre-covid times because they were protected. No, they weren't. Perhaps some people chose to believe that's what the vaccines would offer but that's not what was sold in the media, governments or pharmaceutical companies. No one was calling it a cure. Effectively what some people are arguing is that they assumed that because the vaccines were miraculous (which they are), that they believed that they would offer complete,1 100% protection from infection and that people could return to normal. At some point in time personal responsibility has to come into play. The data has been available about vaccine effectiveness from early on. Something can be extremely effective but not be perfect. Some people seem not to be able to wrap their heads around that, adn when confronted with it, claim they're being scammed.

jdhn 5y ago
>No, they weren't. In that case, what were they sold as? You already said what they weren't sold as, so now I'd like to know what they were sold as.
- brandon272 5y ago
  They were sold as something that offered excellent but imperfect protection from COVID-19, which they do. If we look at the mainstream media in particular, analysis of the vaccines has ranged from "studies show this is really good" to "studies show this is okay" to "there's still things we don't know". I am aware of no mainstream media, research, government, political or industry sources claiming that the vaccine was some cure with unlimited durability. Happy to review any links to those claims if you have any.
  - jdhn 5y ago
    >I am aware of no mainstream media, research, government, political or industry sources claiming that the vaccine was some cure with unlimited durability. Claiming and implying are two different things. It was heavily implied that if you got the vaccine, then you would be able to return to doing things the way you could pre-Covid.
    - brandon272 5y ago
      As rational adults we need to rely more on data and actual claims than vibes we are (mis?)interpreting. When we fail to do so we can't blame others. The data was splashed in front of us. We can't even claim it was hidden. Efficacy and uncertainty regarding how the vaccine would save us from COVID was analyzed in the media at length. Even still, happy to review any links to those implications if you have any because I didn't infer from government/media/research/industry that vaccines were a quick "get out of jail free" card.
      - jdhn 5y ago
        Again, I'm going to ask what were they sold as. You keep saying what they weren't sold as, but have yet to say what they were sold as.
        brandon272 5y ago
        I answered the question directly in my preceding reply [1]: > They were sold as something that offered excellent but imperfect protection from COVID-19, which they do. If we look at the mainstream media in particular, analysis of the vaccines has ranged from "studies show this is really good" to "studies show this is okay" to "there's still things we don't know". [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28947586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28947586
  - charbonneau2 5y ago
    NYTimes, June 28, 2021 [1]: > Pfizer and Moderna Vaccines Likely to Produce Lasting Immunity, Study Finds > The vaccines made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna set off a persistent immune reaction in the body that may protect against the coronavirus for years, scientists reported on Monday. > Exactly how long the protection from mRNA vaccines will last is hard to predict. In the absence of variants that sidestep immunity, in theory immunity could last a lifetime, experts said. But the virus is clearly evolving. > “Anything that would actually require a booster would be variant-based, not based on waning of immunity,” Dr. Bhattacharya said. “I just don’t see that happening.” Pfizer, September 17, 2021 [2]: > A retrospective cohort study conducted at Kaiser Permanente Southern California suggests that the observed erosion in vaccine effectiveness is likely primarily due to waning effectiveness rather than due to Delta escaping vaccine protection [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/28/health/coronavirus-vaccines-immunity.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/28/health/coronavirus-vaccin... [2] https://www.fda.gov/media/152161/download https://www.fda.gov/media/152161/download
stevenicr 5y ago
This is an interesting set of thoughts here and I would love to delve deeper into this with actual news stories and speeches and polling of people who have beliefs of different sides of this. At the moment I am leaning towards disagreeing, I do feel that they have been sold and over-sold as the cure for x y and z - and those who do not get the shots are the reason that x y and z are not a thing for all of yous that are doing your part. I've been watching the news (many sources) on this very closely for a while now, so I can say I am pretty confident in how I feel it's been sold - but I don't have a way to poll people at the moment to see how they've been actually sold on all of it - thought anecdotally I can say I've seen a few who parrot what their tribal others have been saying - so half have been sold one way - little less than half the other perhaps. I can also see how it could be said that you are not wrong - that 'technically' most the news stores and speeches did not actually say it's a cure - technically what they said was 'this is the best way to get ...' or whatever - but the overwhelming slew of additional opinion stuff thrown around the discussions seemed to allude that if everyone gets a couple of shots this thing goes away and all goes back to normal.. and I'm not sure I'm sold on that at this point, but I do think that's what lots of people have been trying to sell everyone on.