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The US bankrolled the research, development and manufacturing of all these vaccines and in return they gave Big Pharma billions in profits -- and complete and t

by 0xy 5y ago

The US bankrolled the research, development and manufacturing of all these vaccines and in return they gave Big Pharma billions in profits -- and complete and total indemnity from side effects and manufacturing defects. The way the supply contracts are written (according to leaks), totally indemnify Pfizer from any liability, including wilful negligence and manufacturing errors. They have zero accountability and all of the reward, and it was all bankrolled for them.

brandon272 5y ago
The compromises made seem like rational ones given the desperate need we had for vaccines. Easy to look back now that many of us have shots in our arms and critique the procurement process. These companies were tasked with developing and mass producing vaccines on an unprecedented scale and schedule. To say “it’s imperative you do this but also entirely shoulder the risk in case of error” doesn’t make much sense to me, even if the payoff is in the billions for them.
- scohesc 5y ago
  I have a very big problem with putting essentially unlimited amounts of trust and faith in a pharmaceutical company who has the single goal of increasing profits year over year. All these morally/lawfully abhorrent things Pfizer has done and been successfully sued/fined/whatever for and we're still allowing them complete indemnity to any side-effects or issues for a vaccine that was rushed out and trials aren't even complete for. It's abhorrent to me to see our governments sign liability away while at the same time handing out blank checks to Pfizer.
  - brandon272 5y ago
    What was the alternative? The vaccines have been a miracle when it comes to reducing risk of severe disease from COVID and have saved countless lives. They were desperately needed before and they are still desperately needed in order to confer all of those same benefits. They weren't going to materialize out of thin air. Urgent demands and compromises were required in order to make it happen.
    - scohesc 5y ago
      If you've got pre-existing conditions that make you more likely to die if you catch the virus (old, fat, bloodpressure/breathing issues), get the vaccine. Even better if you take your own personal precautions and stay home, don't go to any public/private events unless your personal risk tolerance level is okay with doing it. That is what you can control. If you're young and relatively healthy, you don't need the vaccine. You'll get through COVID just fine in the VAST, VAST majority of cases if you catch it. If you want the vaccine, take it. Don't chastise/berate/punish others who decide not to because it's a personal choice linked to bodily autonomy. These lockdowns are due to slow-burning failures in healthcare systems across the board, proactive and reactive.
      - brandon272 5y ago
        > You'll get through COVID just fine in the VAST, VAST majority of cases if you catch it. Yep. But the virus travels through the population so quickly and so effectively and sickens enough people on the margins simultaneously that it cripples even well-prepared first-world healthcare systems and results in significant numbers of dead and disabled that place incredible strain on society in many ways. We will never have a healthcare system that can instantly, across the entire nation, scale up ICU capacity (which is not just literal beds and equipment but also critical care teams consisting of many specialized medical professionals) to be able to deal with mass death and destruction caused by this kind of infectious disease. The lives of those with some kind of "pre-existing condition" that places them at increased risk of COVID also matter and they exist in such great numbers that we cannot simply say "too bad" to them. Half the adult population in the U.S. has hypertension. 42% of the adult population is obese. Improving the health of the population broadly so that it would make an impact when it comes to COVID isn't going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen in a few years. It will require many years. Thus the urgent demand for vaccines. > Don't chastise/berate/punish others who decide not to because it's a personal choice linked to bodily autonomy. Isn't it counterintuitive to demand that others respect "bodily automony" and then turn around and demand others change what they put into their body (food) and do with their body (exercise), or condemn them to death for not making the choices that you want them to make? Getting a shot or to is an order of magnitude simpler for most people than changing a lifetime of diet and exercise education/habits.
refurb 5y ago
The US did not bank roll the R&D and manufacturing. The contracts were options to buy. No cash upfront. The companies, namely Moderna, got some public funding 10 years earlier. Pfizer did not. The rest was bankrolled by the companies themselves. If the vaccines had failed they would have absorbed those loses entirely. And I’ve seen the Pfizer contracts. Of course they were entirely indemnified - would you sell a government an “emergency approved” product and not protect yourself from getting sued into bankruptcy if something went wrong?
- 0xy 5y ago
  Moderna, and most other manufacturers, received direct grant funding for both research and manufacturing through Operation Warp Speed via the CARES Act. I misspoke when I said Pfizer received that funding however, they only received an advance purchase agreement (which is not cash, but it does have a value even before maturation). Companies use advance purchase agreements as collateral for loans and other grant funding. It's also notable that Pfizer/BioNTech did receive grant money from other governments, up front.

by 0xy 5y ago

brandon272 5y ago

The compromises made seem like rational ones given the desperate need we had for vaccines. Easy to look back now that many of us have shots in our arms and critique the procurement process. These companies were tasked with developing and mass producing vaccines on an unprecedented scale and schedule. To say “it’s imperative you do this but also entirely shoulder the risk in case of error” doesn’t make much sense to me, even if the payoff is in the billions for them.

scohesc 5y ago
I have a very big problem with putting essentially unlimited amounts of trust and faith in a pharmaceutical company who has the single goal of increasing profits year over year. All these morally/lawfully abhorrent things Pfizer has done and been successfully sued/fined/whatever for and we're still allowing them complete indemnity to any side-effects or issues for a vaccine that was rushed out and trials aren't even complete for. It's abhorrent to me to see our governments sign liability away while at the same time handing out blank checks to Pfizer.
- brandon272 5y ago
  What was the alternative? The vaccines have been a miracle when it comes to reducing risk of severe disease from COVID and have saved countless lives. They were desperately needed before and they are still desperately needed in order to confer all of those same benefits. They weren't going to materialize out of thin air. Urgent demands and compromises were required in order to make it happen.
  - scohesc 5y ago
    If you've got pre-existing conditions that make you more likely to die if you catch the virus (old, fat, bloodpressure/breathing issues), get the vaccine. Even better if you take your own personal precautions and stay home, don't go to any public/private events unless your personal risk tolerance level is okay with doing it. That is what you can control. If you're young and relatively healthy, you don't need the vaccine. You'll get through COVID just fine in the VAST, VAST majority of cases if you catch it. If you want the vaccine, take it. Don't chastise/berate/punish others who decide not to because it's a personal choice linked to bodily autonomy. These lockdowns are due to slow-burning failures in healthcare systems across the board, proactive and reactive.
    - brandon272 5y ago
      > You'll get through COVID just fine in the VAST, VAST majority of cases if you catch it. Yep. But the virus travels through the population so quickly and so effectively and sickens enough people on the margins simultaneously that it cripples even well-prepared first-world healthcare systems and results in significant numbers of dead and disabled that place incredible strain on society in many ways. We will never have a healthcare system that can instantly, across the entire nation, scale up ICU capacity (which is not just literal beds and equipment but also critical care teams consisting of many specialized medical professionals) to be able to deal with mass death and destruction caused by this kind of infectious disease. The lives of those with some kind of "pre-existing condition" that places them at increased risk of COVID also matter and they exist in such great numbers that we cannot simply say "too bad" to them. Half the adult population in the U.S. has hypertension. 42% of the adult population is obese. Improving the health of the population broadly so that it would make an impact when it comes to COVID isn't going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen in a few years. It will require many years. Thus the urgent demand for vaccines. > Don't chastise/berate/punish others who decide not to because it's a personal choice linked to bodily autonomy. Isn't it counterintuitive to demand that others respect "bodily automony" and then turn around and demand others change what they put into their body (food) and do with their body (exercise), or condemn them to death for not making the choices that you want them to make? Getting a shot or to is an order of magnitude simpler for most people than changing a lifetime of diet and exercise education/habits.

refurb 5y ago

The US did not bank roll the R&D and manufacturing. The contracts were options to buy. No cash upfront. The companies, namely Moderna, got some public funding 10 years earlier. Pfizer did not. The rest was bankrolled by the companies themselves. If the vaccines had failed they would have absorbed those loses entirely. And I’ve seen the Pfizer contracts. Of course they were entirely indemnified - would you sell a government an “emergency approved” product and not protect yourself from getting sued into bankruptcy if something went wrong?

0xy 5y ago
Moderna, and most other manufacturers, received direct grant funding for both research and manufacturing through Operation Warp Speed via the CARES Act. I misspoke when I said Pfizer received that funding however, they only received an advance purchase agreement (which is not cash, but it does have a value even before maturation). Companies use advance purchase agreements as collateral for loans and other grant funding. It's also notable that Pfizer/BioNTech did receive grant money from other governments, up front.