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The issue is that companies like Roku are increasingly making their money by having companies like YouTube TV pay them to carry their apps. Likewise, there are

by mdasen 5y ago

The issue is that companies like Roku are increasingly making their money by having companies like YouTube TV pay them to carry their apps. Likewise, there are lots of things about these systems that can fall under negotiations. For example, what analytics does Roku get access to for actions taken within apps? Does Roku get insight into what YouTube videos you're watching? From Roku's blog post, it seems that Google wants a dedicated area in the global search for YouTube results. For example, If you search for "Last Week Tonight", Google wants a YouTube results row showing clips on their service above results from other content platforms like HBO Max. Basically, Google wants to have the placement that search ads get on their platform on Roku. Previous Roku complaints about Google have included that Google wants all Roku devices to support the AV1 codec - which Google's own Chromecast with Google TV doesn't support. I think the "dumb and twisted" goes both ways. It's dumb and twisted that Google won't allow Roku devices to run YouTube if Roku doesn't commit that all future Roku devices support AV1 - when even Google's own streaming device doesn't support AV1. It's dumb and twisted that Google wants a dedicated row for YouTube search results rather than neutral search results.

judge2020 5y ago
> From Roku's blog post, it seems that Google wants a dedicated area in the global search for YouTube results. For example, If you search for "Last Week Tonight", Google wants a YouTube results row showing clips on their service above results from other content platforms like HBO Max. Basically, Google wants to have the placement that search ads get on their platform on Roku. Previous discussions[0] suggested that it was simply "where does pressing the remote search button take you". If you're in the YT TV app, Google likely wanted the button to focus the search button within the app, not bring you back to the system-wide search. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26944837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26944837
- Pxtl 5y ago
  As a user, I see Google's point on this. I often get annoyed when I want to search within the system I'm using and get pushed to a global search, when I want to stay in the app. I'm sure to the app developers this is doubly annoying because it means taking their users away to other platforms. Ironically Google themselves are pretty bad about this - on any given google product it's a roll of the dice what the scope of the "search" button will be.
  - sixothree 5y ago
    You can search within the youtube app for youtube content.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  It's a great example of what both companies see as their value proposition (to users, and to Wall Street). Roku: aggregating multiple streaming providers in a provider-agnostic way Google: centralizing streaming through the YouTube brand (considering it comprises multiple offerings now) I'm not a huge fan of Roku, due to data collection, but it's apparent who's on the side of the user here. Google/YouTube has finally grown big enough to be everything we hated about legacy content providers.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    This isn’t new. Google messed with YouTube (and Maps) on Windows Phone which is now many years ago.
  - supernovae 5y ago
    NextDNS seems to block Roku's data collection efforts (as well as other "smart tvs")
    - entropicdrifter 5y ago
      My PiHole blocks the Roku data collection, too
- jeffbee 5y ago
  LG WebOS has a YouTube TV app and the search button in the remote takes you to the global search function. This doesn’t seem to cause any friction between google and LG. Because YouTube TV seems to work everywhere but on roku I tend to blame roku here.
  - samtheprogram 5y ago
    Or LG WebOS is not a big enough market for Google to care about the experience to put their foot down, at that point they’d rather be on the device (and controlling other devices where it counts). This is all hearsay though and it’s unclear if Google even made such demands to Roku.
    - jeffbee 5y ago
      LG has 11% of the global TV market and its home electronics division revenues are 20 times larger than Roku's.
      - toast0 5y ago
        LG tvs are quite a bit more expensive than Roku boxes (Roku TVs are made and sold by other parties), so comparing revenue is not very meaningful. Also since home electronics consists of many products, and Roku has essentially a single product.
      - samtheprogram 5y ago
        In most markets, LG and Roku are quite competitive and within a few percentage points of one another. In South America, a less mature but fast growing market, LG has a significant lead over Roku with 23% market share. But in North America, Roku is the market leader with 37% market share, to LG's 4%. Globally, Roku controls 30% (down from 33% in 2020). https://www.protocol.com/roku-global-expansion-conviva-data https://www.protocol.com/roku-global-expansion-conviva-data "Home electronics" covers a lot more than streaming, and even a portion of that revenue could account for users with an LG TV who use a Roku device instead of WebOS. It's not a good comparison.
  - 5y ago
jayd16 5y ago
Is it all Rokus or all new Rokus? If Google wants to move to AV1 it makes sense to sign forward thinking contracts even if they have existing hardware that doesn't support it.
datavirtue 5y ago
All of this distracts from the fact that this medium used to be regulated and broadcasters we're required to exhibit fairness, offer news (regulated by fairness), it was free and had minimal ads and was accessible to everyone. We have democratized content creation and lost the good things we developed for "free television," a philosophy of nearly ubiquitous distribution and fairness. What is the philosophy now? The market is going to yield a spread of reliable information for free? I have to have the means to pay for five different streaming services to get access to all of the valuable content to consider myself informed. It's not just about the latest Marvel movie or Squid Games tripe, it is about an informed citizenry getting access to information. Why is that not part of the debate at all? This very situation--Google and Netflix fighting over a blanket--is problematic in and of itself and much bigger than both of them put together.
Mindwipe 5y ago
> It's dumb and twisted that Google won't allow Roku devices to run YouTube if Roku doesn't commit that all future Roku devices support AV1 - when even Google's own streaming device doesn't support AV1. Surely that would only be the case if Google's future streaming devices don't support AV1, not the current one. And they well might tbh.

by mdasen 5y ago

judge2020 5y ago

> From Roku's blog post, it seems that Google wants a dedicated area in the global search for YouTube results. For example, If you search for "Last Week Tonight", Google wants a YouTube results row showing clips on their service above results from other content platforms like HBO Max. Basically, Google wants to have the placement that search ads get on their platform on Roku. Previous discussions[0] suggested that it was simply "where does pressing the remote search button take you". If you're in the YT TV app, Google likely wanted the button to focus the search button within the app, not bring you back to the system-wide search. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26944837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26944837

Pxtl 5y ago
As a user, I see Google's point on this. I often get annoyed when I want to search within the system I'm using and get pushed to a global search, when I want to stay in the app. I'm sure to the app developers this is doubly annoying because it means taking their users away to other platforms. Ironically Google themselves are pretty bad about this - on any given google product it's a roll of the dice what the scope of the "search" button will be.
- sixothree 5y ago
  You can search within the youtube app for youtube content.
ethbr0 5y ago
It's a great example of what both companies see as their value proposition (to users, and to Wall Street). Roku: aggregating multiple streaming providers in a provider-agnostic way Google: centralizing streaming through the YouTube brand (considering it comprises multiple offerings now) I'm not a huge fan of Roku, due to data collection, but it's apparent who's on the side of the user here. Google/YouTube has finally grown big enough to be everything we hated about legacy content providers.
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  This isn’t new. Google messed with YouTube (and Maps) on Windows Phone which is now many years ago.
- supernovae 5y ago
  NextDNS seems to block Roku's data collection efforts (as well as other "smart tvs")
  - entropicdrifter 5y ago
    My PiHole blocks the Roku data collection, too
jeffbee 5y ago
LG WebOS has a YouTube TV app and the search button in the remote takes you to the global search function. This doesn’t seem to cause any friction between google and LG. Because YouTube TV seems to work everywhere but on roku I tend to blame roku here.
- samtheprogram 5y ago
  Or LG WebOS is not a big enough market for Google to care about the experience to put their foot down, at that point they’d rather be on the device (and controlling other devices where it counts). This is all hearsay though and it’s unclear if Google even made such demands to Roku.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    LG has 11% of the global TV market and its home electronics division revenues are 20 times larger than Roku's.
    - toast0 5y ago
      LG tvs are quite a bit more expensive than Roku boxes (Roku TVs are made and sold by other parties), so comparing revenue is not very meaningful. Also since home electronics consists of many products, and Roku has essentially a single product.
    - samtheprogram 5y ago
      In most markets, LG and Roku are quite competitive and within a few percentage points of one another. In South America, a less mature but fast growing market, LG has a significant lead over Roku with 23% market share. But in North America, Roku is the market leader with 37% market share, to LG's 4%. Globally, Roku controls 30% (down from 33% in 2020). https://www.protocol.com/roku-global-expansion-conviva-data https://www.protocol.com/roku-global-expansion-conviva-data "Home electronics" covers a lot more than streaming, and even a portion of that revenue could account for users with an LG TV who use a Roku device instead of WebOS. It's not a good comparison.
- 5y ago

jayd16 5y ago

Is it all Rokus or all new Rokus? If Google wants to move to AV1 it makes sense to sign forward thinking contracts even if they have existing hardware that doesn't support it.

datavirtue 5y ago

All of this distracts from the fact that this medium used to be regulated and broadcasters we're required to exhibit fairness, offer news (regulated by fairness), it was free and had minimal ads and was accessible to everyone. We have democratized content creation and lost the good things we developed for "free television," a philosophy of nearly ubiquitous distribution and fairness. What is the philosophy now? The market is going to yield a spread of reliable information for free? I have to have the means to pay for five different streaming services to get access to all of the valuable content to consider myself informed. It's not just about the latest Marvel movie or Squid Games tripe, it is about an informed citizenry getting access to information. Why is that not part of the debate at all? This very situation--Google and Netflix fighting over a blanket--is problematic in and of itself and much bigger than both of them put together.

Mindwipe 5y ago

> It's dumb and twisted that Google won't allow Roku devices to run YouTube if Roku doesn't commit that all future Roku devices support AV1 - when even Google's own streaming device doesn't support AV1. Surely that would only be the case if Google's future streaming devices don't support AV1, not the current one. And they well might tbh.