9 ms·

I get this situation is different since YouTube is looking for concessions on functionality, but I find it hard to defend Roku with their triple-dipping scheme.

by dtjb 5y ago

I get this situation is different since YouTube is looking for concessions on functionality, but I find it hard to defend Roku with their triple-dipping scheme. They charge for the device (I paid over $100 for my 4k HDR box), then they display massive ads covering 50% of the screen, then they want a cut of revenue from content providers as well. Roku burned through a lot of goodwill with their customers during the HBO Max holdout.

unethical_ban 5y ago
I didn't know they charged money from app creators to be hosted. I thought they just made their money on hardware! All roku had to do was build some quality hardware and a decent streaming UI. The only thing that would take money to maintain from a server perspective should be the update servers and software servers. I saw them as one of the few dedicated streaming devices (next to Shield) for being "provider neutral" - that is, not apple and not Google.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  OK. So they are supposed to make money selling one of the most unprofitable commodities on earth...electronic hardware? The only company pulling that off is Apple...and probably just on the iPhone. I paid $400 for a huge TCL TV. It probably cost $100 just to move it around the globe. There is no money for development or the platform/service in that price.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    There's no way that a container full of TVs costs $100 per TV to ship. A bit of quick ddg-ing and it looks like a 40 foot container should be less than $4000 port to port.
    - supernovae 5y ago
      BOM -> Factory -> Warehouse -> Worldwide distribution -> Port of authority -> Warehouse -> Retailer/Etailer -> Customer We're spoiled..
    - opo 5y ago
      With the supply chain problems, prices have gone up - sometimes quite a bit. I saw this article: >...Container shipping rates from China to the United States have scaled fresh highs above $20,000 per 40-foot box as rising retailer orders ahead of the peak U.S. shopping season add strain to global supply chains. https://www.reuters.com/business/china-us-container-shipping-rates-sail-past-20000-record-2021-08-05/ https://www.reuters.com/business/china-us-container-shipping...
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    I suppose the question is, what incentive do Apple or Google or Amazon have to put their content on a competitor's hardware? Moreover, pay to get it on Roku? People are going to buy the hardware that has the content they want. I feel like the big three are squeezing Roku out. Should legislation be written to require content and hardware platforms be separate? That Apple TV should have to be available for Shield and Roku, and that Youtube TV be allowed on Apple and Roku?
    - Mindwipe 5y ago
      > Should legislation be written to require content and hardware platforms be separate? There are literally thousands of platforms and devices, all with little bespoke niggles. Who's going to pay for that?
gonehome 5y ago
Yeah I liked them initially, but have since thrown out all their crap and bought Apple TVs. Once Apple got Amazon prime streaming roku lost their only differentiating feature. The ads really annoyed me to the extent that I don’t care if they fail.
- HelloMcFly 5y ago
  Roku's differentiating feature has always been simplicity and universal search. Does Apple TV offer universal search across content providers? I'm asking, I don't know, but it's the one feature I can't give up.
  - gonehome 5y ago
    Yep - you can search across all installed apps.
    - pchristensen 5y ago
      Content providers can choose what content to expose to the universal search. Most do, notably Netflix does not, so you can't find Netflix content using Siri.
      - jjeaff 5y ago
        Android tv does. Which you can get on an Nvidia shield or a cheaper off brand device on Amazon. Just be sure to get one that is certified for Netflix. (I think it's some kind of DRM that has to be on the device for the Netflix app to work).
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        That is one reason I canceled Netflix, and will not re subscribe until they opt in. Here’s the list of content providers that do integrate: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208083 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208083
  - rashkov 5y ago
CarlosEscobedo 5y ago
I think the triple dipping is the main issue. If they want a cut from content providers they need to provide something more then just we will have your app.
NelsonMinar 5y ago
I'm a long time Roku fan but also feel they're in the wrong here. Mostly I'm angry because I feel captive; I bought my TCL TV explicitly because it had the Roku OS. It's great! Right until it can't show the one content site I most want to see because of some stupid business argument. I feel like a sucker for paying for Roku.
- criddell 5y ago
  I'm kind of done with Roku. When they were holding customers hostage to squeeze more money out of HBOMax I did a bit of reading about Roku and realized how parasitic they are. None of the commercial streaming device options are great, but I think my next one will be an Apple TV.
- inetknght 5y ago
  > I'm angry because I feel captive; I bought my TCL TV explicitly because it had the Roku OS. You bought a TV and expected it to not have its features changed. That sounds like a very reasonable expectation.
- supernovae 5y ago
  The TV has roku built in, but, it's still a TV with HDMI and USB ports so you can use it with any non ROKU device you want. You're not worse off...
pkulak 5y ago
I can't say this for everyone, but a tech consumer has to know that just over $100 does not cover the cost of the hardware. It's got to come from somewhere else. I'm usually not much of an Apple fan, but I just switched to the Apple TV and am really liking it. It certainly seems like charging 2x the price for the hardware removes a lot of the incentive to do all the scammy stuff Ruku is involved in; though I guess I can't know for sure, or know the future.
- pier25 5y ago
  I also bought an ATV recently and I'm very happy with it. I still use an Nvidia Shield for Plex though. The ATV is great for streaming platforms, but lacks HDMI audio passthrough which is essential for watching hi quality BluRay rips on a home theater.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I do not know if this is what you mean, but the new Apple TV 4K has HDMI ARC/eARC: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207117 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207117
    - pier25 5y ago
      It's not that. ARC/eARC is about the TV sending audio from HDMI devices to another HDMI port where your receiver/soundbar is connected. HDMI audio passthrough is a feature that allows apps to send any raw encoded audio signal "as is" via the HDMI port (eg: Dolby, DTS, etc) to your receiver that will do the decoding. The ATV does not support DTS or TrueHD, hence to output audio with those codecs, it needs to be decoded and converted on the fly to a supported format like PCM. Unfortunately this produces all sort of issues (sync, volume, etc).
- bgorman 5y ago
  100 dollars certainly covers the cost of the hardware. These streaming devices use commodity chips and run Linux. This isn’t a crazy R&D project. The only real value-add from Roku is the software.
Gunax 5y ago
I am a bit sympathetic to them because that's what the market asks for. I am looking at the prices of rokus, and my guess is they are losing money on the hardware. And yes, we should have a completely free (as in speech) device. But if you actually offered it and priced it accordingly, most people would not buy it. It's dumb but it's what we consumers have voiced with our money.
- scantron4 5y ago
  amazon offers an ad free version of the kindle for $30 more. I'd love the same from Roku. But then... I bought the ad version, not for price but because it had the pretty colors and I don't like using cases on kindles anymore.
  - supernovae 5y ago
    NextDNS blocks Roku's ads and tracking for me. I just get a blank square on the home page.
saisundar 5y ago
4 way dipping. Roku also takes a cut for every transaction that goes via its platform. If I end up subscribing to HBO via roku, Roku takes a cut too. On a related note, is it just me that's flummoxed by the lack of Ad disclosures for the Roku ads? I can't seem to find it - and having worked ij tech ads , I find this troubling and concerning.
josefresco 5y ago
> then they display massive ads covering 50% of the screen Stop this. I have multiple Rokus. The % of time I spend on their menu looking at the ads is like 0.0001% of my total time using Roku. In fact, I didn't even notice any ads for months until someone on Reddit complained about it.
johntash 5y ago
The article says they don't make money from YouTube's Ads. Is that not true?
geoduck14 5y ago
I'm reminded of the axiom: if you don't pay for the product, then you are the product. Well, if you DO pay for the product, you are STILL the product.

by dtjb 5y ago

unethical_ban 5y ago

I didn't know they charged money from app creators to be hosted. I thought they just made their money on hardware! All roku had to do was build some quality hardware and a decent streaming UI. The only thing that would take money to maintain from a server perspective should be the update servers and software servers. I saw them as one of the few dedicated streaming devices (next to Shield) for being "provider neutral" - that is, not apple and not Google.

datavirtue 5y ago
OK. So they are supposed to make money selling one of the most unprofitable commodities on earth...electronic hardware? The only company pulling that off is Apple...and probably just on the iPhone. I paid $400 for a huge TCL TV. It probably cost $100 just to move it around the globe. There is no money for development or the platform/service in that price.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  There's no way that a container full of TVs costs $100 per TV to ship. A bit of quick ddg-ing and it looks like a 40 foot container should be less than $4000 port to port.
  - supernovae 5y ago
    BOM -> Factory -> Warehouse -> Worldwide distribution -> Port of authority -> Warehouse -> Retailer/Etailer -> Customer We're spoiled..
  - opo 5y ago
    With the supply chain problems, prices have gone up - sometimes quite a bit. I saw this article: >...Container shipping rates from China to the United States have scaled fresh highs above $20,000 per 40-foot box as rising retailer orders ahead of the peak U.S. shopping season add strain to global supply chains. https://www.reuters.com/business/china-us-container-shipping-rates-sail-past-20000-record-2021-08-05/ https://www.reuters.com/business/china-us-container-shipping...
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  I suppose the question is, what incentive do Apple or Google or Amazon have to put their content on a competitor's hardware? Moreover, pay to get it on Roku? People are going to buy the hardware that has the content they want. I feel like the big three are squeezing Roku out. Should legislation be written to require content and hardware platforms be separate? That Apple TV should have to be available for Shield and Roku, and that Youtube TV be allowed on Apple and Roku?
  - Mindwipe 5y ago
    > Should legislation be written to require content and hardware platforms be separate? There are literally thousands of platforms and devices, all with little bespoke niggles. Who's going to pay for that?

gonehome 5y ago

Yeah I liked them initially, but have since thrown out all their crap and bought Apple TVs. Once Apple got Amazon prime streaming roku lost their only differentiating feature. The ads really annoyed me to the extent that I don’t care if they fail.

HelloMcFly 5y ago
Roku's differentiating feature has always been simplicity and universal search. Does Apple TV offer universal search across content providers? I'm asking, I don't know, but it's the one feature I can't give up.
- gonehome 5y ago
  Yep - you can search across all installed apps.
  - pchristensen 5y ago
    Content providers can choose what content to expose to the universal search. Most do, notably Netflix does not, so you can't find Netflix content using Siri.
    - jjeaff 5y ago
      Android tv does. Which you can get on an Nvidia shield or a cheaper off brand device on Amazon. Just be sure to get one that is certified for Netflix. (I think it's some kind of DRM that has to be on the device for the Netflix app to work).
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      That is one reason I canceled Netflix, and will not re subscribe until they opt in. Here’s the list of content providers that do integrate: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208083 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208083
- rashkov 5y ago

CarlosEscobedo 5y ago

I think the triple dipping is the main issue. If they want a cut from content providers they need to provide something more then just we will have your app.

NelsonMinar 5y ago

I'm a long time Roku fan but also feel they're in the wrong here. Mostly I'm angry because I feel captive; I bought my TCL TV explicitly because it had the Roku OS. It's great! Right until it can't show the one content site I most want to see because of some stupid business argument. I feel like a sucker for paying for Roku.

criddell 5y ago
I'm kind of done with Roku. When they were holding customers hostage to squeeze more money out of HBOMax I did a bit of reading about Roku and realized how parasitic they are. None of the commercial streaming device options are great, but I think my next one will be an Apple TV.
inetknght 5y ago
> I'm angry because I feel captive; I bought my TCL TV explicitly because it had the Roku OS. You bought a TV and expected it to not have its features changed. That sounds like a very reasonable expectation.
supernovae 5y ago
The TV has roku built in, but, it's still a TV with HDMI and USB ports so you can use it with any non ROKU device you want. You're not worse off...

pkulak 5y ago

I can't say this for everyone, but a tech consumer has to know that just over $100 does not cover the cost of the hardware. It's got to come from somewhere else. I'm usually not much of an Apple fan, but I just switched to the Apple TV and am really liking it. It certainly seems like charging 2x the price for the hardware removes a lot of the incentive to do all the scammy stuff Ruku is involved in; though I guess I can't know for sure, or know the future.

pier25 5y ago
I also bought an ATV recently and I'm very happy with it. I still use an Nvidia Shield for Plex though. The ATV is great for streaming platforms, but lacks HDMI audio passthrough which is essential for watching hi quality BluRay rips on a home theater.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I do not know if this is what you mean, but the new Apple TV 4K has HDMI ARC/eARC: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207117 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207117
  - pier25 5y ago
    It's not that. ARC/eARC is about the TV sending audio from HDMI devices to another HDMI port where your receiver/soundbar is connected. HDMI audio passthrough is a feature that allows apps to send any raw encoded audio signal "as is" via the HDMI port (eg: Dolby, DTS, etc) to your receiver that will do the decoding. The ATV does not support DTS or TrueHD, hence to output audio with those codecs, it needs to be decoded and converted on the fly to a supported format like PCM. Unfortunately this produces all sort of issues (sync, volume, etc).
bgorman 5y ago
100 dollars certainly covers the cost of the hardware. These streaming devices use commodity chips and run Linux. This isn’t a crazy R&D project. The only real value-add from Roku is the software.

Gunax 5y ago

I am a bit sympathetic to them because that's what the market asks for. I am looking at the prices of rokus, and my guess is they are losing money on the hardware. And yes, we should have a completely free (as in speech) device. But if you actually offered it and priced it accordingly, most people would not buy it. It's dumb but it's what we consumers have voiced with our money.

scantron4 5y ago
amazon offers an ad free version of the kindle for $30 more. I'd love the same from Roku. But then... I bought the ad version, not for price but because it had the pretty colors and I don't like using cases on kindles anymore.
- supernovae 5y ago
  NextDNS blocks Roku's ads and tracking for me. I just get a blank square on the home page.

saisundar 5y ago

4 way dipping. Roku also takes a cut for every transaction that goes via its platform. If I end up subscribing to HBO via roku, Roku takes a cut too. On a related note, is it just me that's flummoxed by the lack of Ad disclosures for the Roku ads? I can't seem to find it - and having worked ij tech ads , I find this troubling and concerning.

josefresco 5y ago

> then they display massive ads covering 50% of the screen Stop this. I have multiple Rokus. The % of time I spend on their menu looking at the ads is like 0.0001% of my total time using Roku. In fact, I didn't even notice any ads for months until someone on Reddit complained about it.

johntash 5y ago

The article says they don't make money from YouTube's Ads. Is that not true?

geoduck14 5y ago

I'm reminded of the axiom: if you don't pay for the product, then you are the product. Well, if you DO pay for the product, you are STILL the product.