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> I was extremely wrong and even felt a little guilty that I didn't bring it up sooner since they can and should be making more. That's considerate of you, but

> I was extremely wrong and even felt a little guilty that I didn't bring it up sooner since they can and should be making more. That's considerate of you, but I don't share your concern for two reasons. First data is readily available, so if they want to know they can. Secondly I've found that in general people value familiarity and stability more than maximizing salary. This is a personal choice they make and it's fine. In fact it's well known phenomenon that's been written about extensively [1]. In my personal network, very few are prone to "job hopping", many stay at the same company on the same apps for 5 or 10+ years. In these cases developers risk skill atrophy, which is a closely related concern. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F

joshstrange 5y ago
> First data is readily available, so if they want to know they can. Yes and no. Yes industry numbers are readily available but I have friends that I consider to be at or above my technical level who suffer from an almost crippling imposter syndrome or "Yeah, maybe in CA but I couldn't get that wage in KY". Also all the companies I choose to work for are smaller (<100 or even <30) and so there is much less data out there on sites like Glassdoor and/or there could be potential backlash for posting your salary since it would be trivial to find out who posted it (even with fudging title/salary). Yes, the backlash would be illegal but it can be extremely hard, if not impossible, to prove and so it's easily to wait till I've left a company for a while before posting that data publicly. > Secondly I've found that in general people value familiarity and stability more than maximizing salary. There are absolutely people I've shared info with that decided to stay but I'm much more familiar with "You are making how much? Crap, I need to find a new job". If you are happy where you are and don't want to change then that's fine, I just want people to know what they are worth. Some people get stuck at a place for 5-10+ years and think "Well I couldn't find this salary anywhere else" or "What if I can't learn a new system/language/etc" and in a lot of instance I know these people could do it, it's just fear of the unknown (I'm not going to pretend I don't suffer from this as well).
- jpgvm 5y ago
  Imposter syndrome is a real thing. When one of my close friends (thankfully) consulted my about his first real job offer I was insulted on his behalf for how badly they lowballed him. I immediately referred him and secured him a proper offer. This is important not just because he is my friend but for our whole industry. Many programmers suffer from such afflictions and many hiring managers are more than happy to take advantage of it. If you think your friend is always underselling how good they you should definitely try broach the subject if they are comfortable talking about it and help them realise their worth.
  - joshstrange 5y ago
    > I was insulted on his behalf for how badly they lowballed him I've been there multiple times. Both in offers and in finding out coworkers doing the same job making less (I guess I push a little harder in interviews? Or just ask for more upfront?). When a very good friend and I were both leaving our last company I asked how much he telling recruiters he wanted, it was a meager amount over his current salary and I balked at it then told him to ask for what I was asking for. He ended up taking a job a little under that number but had he applied with his lower number that's all he would have received. > If you think your friend is always underselling how good they you should definitely try broach the subject if they are comfortable talking about it and help them realize their worth. I've done this for multiple people and some people will get it after the first time you talk to them and some of them I have to work on over time. I know it's not "my problem" and I've been told "you can't make people want better for themselves" or "you can't push people to be better if they don't want to be" but I disagree with that. Are there some lost cases? Maybe, I've yet to find one and I wont stop pushing (gently) until they see their market-worth or they ask me to stop. Mind you, this isn't be berating them or telling them they are stupid for making less, far from it, it's me telling them they are underselling themselves and I just want better for them.
happytoexplain 5y ago
>data is readily available This isn't my experience unless one works in a major city.
- notreallyserio 5y ago
  On that subject, when it pertains to software, I find it really odd that folks in the industry consider location as a factor in salary negotiation. Why should a developer in WV earn less than a comparable developer in CA? It’s not like the company gets less value out of the former’s work.
  - tester756 5y ago
    Because guy in CA can drink vodka with management more often. I'm kinda kidding, but it's complex topic and both sides have "decent arguments" At the end of the day your salary is not connected that hard to the money that you generate.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    >It’s not like the company gets less value out of the former’s work. There must be some reason why the owners/directors of the companies making the most profit are willing to pay more. While it is possible they are making a mistake, the fact that this pay discrepancy has existed for decades, and the fact the companies are still very profitable, would suggest the probability of that is not very high. It is also possible that a systemic change like abrupt adoption of work from home across all industries and the country or even world might cause a change in the parameters that made the previous dynamic successful.

joshstrange 5y ago

> First data is readily available, so if they want to know they can. Yes and no. Yes industry numbers are readily available but I have friends that I consider to be at or above my technical level who suffer from an almost crippling imposter syndrome or "Yeah, maybe in CA but I couldn't get that wage in KY". Also all the companies I choose to work for are smaller (<100 or even <30) and so there is much less data out there on sites like Glassdoor and/or there could be potential backlash for posting your salary since it would be trivial to find out who posted it (even with fudging title/salary). Yes, the backlash would be illegal but it can be extremely hard, if not impossible, to prove and so it's easily to wait till I've left a company for a while before posting that data publicly. > Secondly I've found that in general people value familiarity and stability more than maximizing salary. There are absolutely people I've shared info with that decided to stay but I'm much more familiar with "You are making how much? Crap, I need to find a new job". If you are happy where you are and don't want to change then that's fine, I just want people to know what they are worth. Some people get stuck at a place for 5-10+ years and think "Well I couldn't find this salary anywhere else" or "What if I can't learn a new system/language/etc" and in a lot of instance I know these people could do it, it's just fear of the unknown (I'm not going to pretend I don't suffer from this as well).

jpgvm 5y ago
Imposter syndrome is a real thing. When one of my close friends (thankfully) consulted my about his first real job offer I was insulted on his behalf for how badly they lowballed him. I immediately referred him and secured him a proper offer. This is important not just because he is my friend but for our whole industry. Many programmers suffer from such afflictions and many hiring managers are more than happy to take advantage of it. If you think your friend is always underselling how good they you should definitely try broach the subject if they are comfortable talking about it and help them realise their worth.
- joshstrange 5y ago
  > I was insulted on his behalf for how badly they lowballed him I've been there multiple times. Both in offers and in finding out coworkers doing the same job making less (I guess I push a little harder in interviews? Or just ask for more upfront?). When a very good friend and I were both leaving our last company I asked how much he telling recruiters he wanted, it was a meager amount over his current salary and I balked at it then told him to ask for what I was asking for. He ended up taking a job a little under that number but had he applied with his lower number that's all he would have received. > If you think your friend is always underselling how good they you should definitely try broach the subject if they are comfortable talking about it and help them realize their worth. I've done this for multiple people and some people will get it after the first time you talk to them and some of them I have to work on over time. I know it's not "my problem" and I've been told "you can't make people want better for themselves" or "you can't push people to be better if they don't want to be" but I disagree with that. Are there some lost cases? Maybe, I've yet to find one and I wont stop pushing (gently) until they see their market-worth or they ask me to stop. Mind you, this isn't be berating them or telling them they are stupid for making less, far from it, it's me telling them they are underselling themselves and I just want better for them.

happytoexplain 5y ago

>data is readily available This isn't my experience unless one works in a major city.

notreallyserio 5y ago
On that subject, when it pertains to software, I find it really odd that folks in the industry consider location as a factor in salary negotiation. Why should a developer in WV earn less than a comparable developer in CA? It’s not like the company gets less value out of the former’s work.
- tester756 5y ago
  Because guy in CA can drink vodka with management more often. I'm kinda kidding, but it's complex topic and both sides have "decent arguments" At the end of the day your salary is not connected that hard to the money that you generate.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  >It’s not like the company gets less value out of the former’s work. There must be some reason why the owners/directors of the companies making the most profit are willing to pay more. While it is possible they are making a mistake, the fact that this pay discrepancy has existed for decades, and the fact the companies are still very profitable, would suggest the probability of that is not very high. It is also possible that a systemic change like abrupt adoption of work from home across all industries and the country or even world might cause a change in the parameters that made the previous dynamic successful.