4 ms·

> Language tech improved, PHP didn't come with it. I'm curious what you are basing that on? PHP is not a fixed language. 8.0 was just released last year and h

by throwaway2016a 5y ago

> Language tech improved, PHP didn't come with it. I'm curious what you are basing that on? PHP is not a fixed language. 8.0 was just released last year and has significant improvements. And has had several minor releases since (latest one being just weeks ago). It has a package manager, a community of OSS libraries, tooling... everything a mature language has. According to Github in the last month: > 36 authors have pushed 311 commits to master and 329 commits to all branches. On master, 413 files have changed and there have been 19,469 additions and 7,581 deletions. Not including popular libraries like CakePHP, Laravel, Wordpress, Drupal, etc. All of which are also very active with hundreds (if not thousands for some) of contributors. That doesn't seem stagnant to me. Edit: As a note, I don't even use PHP anymore (though I used to a lot in the past). I'm just confused by how someone can say it hasn't evolved with the times. If anything PHP has proven time and time again it is in fact willing to involve. With releases that make leaps and bounds for performance (with benchmarks) and add new more "modern" features consistently for over a two decades.

jpgvm 5y ago
I guess it depends on what your bar is. I'm comparing it against Java/C# primarily. If you compare it to Python then yeah, it looks like a pretty fast moving language, I just don't think that is a relevant comparison when your choices are much broader than just Python or PHP. PHP 8 introduced a lot of great stuff but to me it's just about playing catch up to things like Kotlin, i.e null safe operator, etc. They made the runtime a lot faster with the JIT and the Opcache but it still pales in comparison to the JVM or CLR. Type system is still not a real type system, it's more analogous to Typescript. I get why, it's because you can't turn around and make PHP backwards incompatible, but that is also why it can't ever be in the same class. Meanwhile in JVM land you have things in progress like Loom which present a fundamental change in how highly concurrent applications can be built. Since Java 9 huge things landed like Jigsaw + ZGC and Shenandoah which are cutting edge GCs, not cutting edge for Java but in language-tech overall, i.e it's Java that sets the pace for what a modern VM looks like and that has been the case for some time now. v8 was perhaps more impressive for a short while until InvokeDynamic came along and escape analysis got better but these days JVM is pretty squarely in the lead with CLR closely following. PHP won't ever be on the cutting edge and tbh, that is probably fine. Like I said, C isn't cutting edge and it's just as applicable as ever. The difference between that and what people in this thread are arguing is they are saying things like "PHP is modern and generally good!" which just isn't true. It's improving and that is great, but modern and generally good it is not. Doesn't stop it from being useful in the places it excels but as a general purpose language there are just better options.
- throwaway2016a 5y ago
  I appreciate the detailed response to my question. But... > as a general purpose language there are just better options I don't think PHP ever pretends or tries to be a general purpose language or cutting edge. But I think to say it hasn't evolved is a bit misleading. PHP has always been a domain specific language. It is designed to do one thing well: stateless request oriented applications with strong ability to scale horizontally. And for that, it does pretty well.

jpgvm 5y ago

I guess it depends on what your bar is. I'm comparing it against Java/C# primarily. If you compare it to Python then yeah, it looks like a pretty fast moving language, I just don't think that is a relevant comparison when your choices are much broader than just Python or PHP. PHP 8 introduced a lot of great stuff but to me it's just about playing catch up to things like Kotlin, i.e null safe operator, etc. They made the runtime a lot faster with the JIT and the Opcache but it still pales in comparison to the JVM or CLR. Type system is still not a real type system, it's more analogous to Typescript. I get why, it's because you can't turn around and make PHP backwards incompatible, but that is also why it can't ever be in the same class. Meanwhile in JVM land you have things in progress like Loom which present a fundamental change in how highly concurrent applications can be built. Since Java 9 huge things landed like Jigsaw + ZGC and Shenandoah which are cutting edge GCs, not cutting edge for Java but in language-tech overall, i.e it's Java that sets the pace for what a modern VM looks like and that has been the case for some time now. v8 was perhaps more impressive for a short while until InvokeDynamic came along and escape analysis got better but these days JVM is pretty squarely in the lead with CLR closely following. PHP won't ever be on the cutting edge and tbh, that is probably fine. Like I said, C isn't cutting edge and it's just as applicable as ever. The difference between that and what people in this thread are arguing is they are saying things like "PHP is modern and generally good!" which just isn't true. It's improving and that is great, but modern and generally good it is not. Doesn't stop it from being useful in the places it excels but as a general purpose language there are just better options.

throwaway2016a 5y ago
I appreciate the detailed response to my question. But... > as a general purpose language there are just better options I don't think PHP ever pretends or tries to be a general purpose language or cutting edge. But I think to say it hasn't evolved is a bit misleading. PHP has always been a domain specific language. It is designed to do one thing well: stateless request oriented applications with strong ability to scale horizontally. And for that, it does pretty well.