10 ms·

Intuit is such an evil company. Now that I've moved to Germany, I know what it feels like not to have to file every year (I still have to for the US but it's tr

by junon 5y ago

Intuit is such an evil company. Now that I've moved to Germany, I know what it feels like not to have to file every year (I still have to for the US but it's trivial now due to FIEC). There's nobody hounding you here, no stress regarding your taxes unless you're filing for a return or have extenuating circumstances, and even then there's a government-provided online portal for direct communication with the Finanzamt (finance department). Every American should be upset with Intuit.

tromp 5y ago
Why assign all the blame to Intuit? > They persuaded the Internal Revenue Service for more than a decade to pledge in writing not to adopt California’s innovation or develop any other offerings that threatened their business model. I think the IRS deserves much of the blame for yielding to Intuit's persuasion. Every American should be upset with both Intuit and the IRS.
- iammisc 5y ago
  I'm just upset with the IRS. The IRS officers hold a position of public trust. Intuit does not.
  - Maarten88 5y ago
    Isn't the IRS just executing the policies that elected politicians decide? It seems the IRS wanted to do the right thing 20 years ago, but they were stopped by politicians who were corrupted by lobbyists. Maybe US people should elect politicians that represent them instead of business. And stop buying the incredible amounts of double-speak that is always present in discussions like these.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      Yes. I should restate... I'm not mad at low-level IRS employees. Rather the ones nominated and approved by Congress, who ultimately make these decisions.
      - garmaine 5y ago
        It is Converse that makes these decisions, no? The IRS just does what it is told.
        iammisc 5y ago
        yes, in some regards, no in others.
        jaywalk 5y ago
        Yes, in any regard that matters. The IRS cannot just decide to start doing this. They have to follow the law.
        equality_1138 5y ago
        I'm not mad at congress, I'm mad at the fools who keep voting for them.
        quantified 5y ago
        Those fools can only vote for whoever is running. Given a slate of candidates, if only one vote is cast by anyone, you will have a winner. And so it goes.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    I expect Intuit, and every other company where responsibility is sufficiently large that nobody feels personally responsible for the company's actions, to do heinous things to make a buck if the option presents itself. Whereas the IRS, and every other government agency, is supposedly trying to help society or at least not hurt it.
  - eropple 5y ago
    There is a school of thought, and I tend to agree with it, that "a position of public trust" is exactly and specifically what is granted to a corporation by granting it its special, fictive-person, liability-shielding status. The veneration of "corporations as psychopaths" is more of a deification of the current state, not an aspirational one. It doesn't have to be that way, and so we absolutely can fault Intuit for acting against that public trust. Intuit has responsibilities to the society that grants it its charter, and that includes not peeing in the public pool. (That school of thought, yeah, puts most companies in a real bad light. And? Well? Yes. They have earned it.)
    - iammisc 5y ago
      > granted to a corporation by granting it its special, fictive-person, liability-shielding status. There is no such thing. This is such a silly argument made by people who have no understanding of corporate liability laws. Incorporating doesn't suddenly shield you from liability. If you were negligent or intended harm, you will be held personally liable. If you're a shareholder and knew what was going on, you will also be held liable. The issue is not incorporation, it's a government too timid to enforce the law.
      - eropple 5y ago
        I'm well aware of how corporate liability laws work, thank you. Intuit advocating to indirectly damage the body politic to increase their profits is not negligence. It is also wrong. The divide, and the hole in the modern theory of the corporation, is obvious when one is not hiding the cards. It is a moral failure and a failure of social distinction, not a legal one. I understand why that shorts your circuit. It exists nevertheless.
- tehwebguy 5y ago
  On the federal level almost every bad thing that happens and good thing that doesn't happen is the fault of the senate.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    Which necessarily means that every good thing that happens and every bad thing that doesn't happen is also the fault of the senate. I don't agree, I'm just logically expanding your statement.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    On the flip / non-left side my view is the same, but with Pelosi and the house.
- Retric 5y ago
  The IRS doesn’t get to make these rules, that’s up to congress and then the president.
- mmmBacon 5y ago
  This isn’t the fault of the IRS. The IRS can only do what Congress allows them to do. It’s the fault of Congress. In fact the 2 key Congresswomen responsible are Zoe Lofgren and Anna Eshoo. I currently live in Eshoo’s district but I can tell you she is completely unresponsive to you if you don’t live in Atherton or Palo Alto. I have never seen her campaign once. Her district is sprawling and includes 3 counties in the Bay Area and communities that have almost nothing in common. Her district includes Atherton, Menlo Park, Palo Alto, MountainView as well as South San Jose and Scott’s Valley. The district is designed to ensure she never has to face a re-election challenge. It’s almost impossible to enact change with the way this system is arranged.
  - ulfw 5y ago
    Geez. She is still there? I remember writing her 16 years ago when I was at Stanford and had an issue. Of course neither she (nor her office) ever bothered to respond. Wow.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      Nice Stanford name drop.
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    Eshoo should be voted out. https://eshoo.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-eshoo-introduces-hr-5114-tax-return-choice-act https://eshoo.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-eshoo-intro... Unfortunately, editorials favor incumbents too much to allow an attack from the left to succeed. https://www.stanforddaily.com/2020/03/01/why-we-endorse-incumbent-anna-eshoo-for-18th-congressional-district/ https://www.stanforddaily.com/2020/03/01/why-we-endorse-incu... and https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/10/28/editorial-eshoo/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/10/28/editorial-eshoo/
  - tromp 5y ago
    How can only 2 congress people be responsible? Surely all the other members would have had a say as well in legislating IRS policy?
- slg 5y ago
  Intuit is lobbying in defense of their entire industry. Almost every company of their size would do the same thing in their situation. The people who deserve the blame here are the people who are susceptible to those lobbying efforts. Blame Congress.
  - nielsbot 5y ago
    I blame the rules that let this happen. In general, people are gonna people.
    - slg 5y ago
      Not coincidentally the people who make the rules are the people who I said to blame.
    - isleyaardvark 5y ago
      This is entirely too cynical and pessimistic. In particular others have pointed out that other countries do not do this, and it’s not like they aren’t people.
      - nielsbot 5y ago
        I disagree--those other countries operate under different rules. Power does corrupt.
        croon 5y ago
        Different rules that those people set up. Power can't be created or destroyed, it can only converted from one form to another. I'd much rather power reside with people and what they can vote for, rather than let it all fall to mega-corps.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    Why don’t we blame the intuit employees while we’re at it? If they had no employees then they wouldn’t be in business? So does this mean it’s actually the citizens fault?
- jandrese 5y ago
  There is a strong contingent in Congress that believes that it is only moral for it to be annoying and expensive to pay taxes, as they believe that taxes should be opposed by the masses. If taxes are too easy then people won't think about them, and will simply enjoy the services the government provides with them, which is tyranny. This is also why the US keeps sales tax separate instead of rolling it into the price of the item like Europe. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/american-tax-returns-dont-need-be-painful/586369/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/american-t...
  - wahern 5y ago
    Not all states preclude including sales tax in advertised prices. According to this website, https://www.taxjar.com/blog/retail/can-retailer-include-sales-tax-in-the-price https://www.taxjar.com/blog/retail/can-retailer-include-sale..., and by a quick count, at least 20 states permit combined pricing without any more limitation than a posted sign. That count excludes states which only permit it for a limited set of products and services, or which require sales tax to be itemized on the receipt. Perhaps you're confusing VAT vs sales tax, which is an entirely different issue, and while some politicians might prefer a sales tax on the presumption of its conspicuousness, the real debate regarding adopting VAT is far more complex. VAT does seem to be the darling of many economists, but those economists also tend to overlook the fact that Europe has significantly larger grey and black markets, as well as more tax evasion, than the U.S.; and some of that difference is arguably a consequence of the mechanics of VAT and the general preference for hiding the taxation system from individuals. It's also worth noting that there are good reasons for itemizing sales tax separately. For example, for individuals state sales tax can be deducted from federal income, but not the cost of the item itself.
  - vinay427 5y ago
    > This is also why the US keeps sales tax separate instead of rolling it into the price of the item like Europe. Even in a relatively federalized (by European standards) country like Switzerland, the VAT is set nationally. This isn’t the case in the US, and several states even have different sales tax rates in each city. It would be a considerable logistical mess to coordinate integrated sales tax signposting, both from a business and consumer perspective. Amazon already handles this somewhat awkwardly by changing store prices if you set your location on Amazon.de to Switzerland, with the prices somewhat unpredictably changing if it decided to remember your location preferences, and no longer following common numbering conventions (e.g. x.99).
locallost 5y ago
Living in Germany it's difficult to understand somebody saying nice things about their tax system :-). It almost caused a divorce for me, several times. But ok, if you don't file then it's understandable. But you should as you are almost always getting money back. For around 200 you can find somebody to do it for you and it will still be worth it.
progx 5y ago
But only für employees! As an independent or small company owner you have todo it every year.
- junon 5y ago
  Right, most people are employees though. Germany has another problem though - getting a Steuerberater (tax advisor) to help you with the paperwork as a business owner is next to impossible.
  - moooo99 5y ago
    > getting a Steuerberater (tax advisor) to help you with the paperwork as a business owner is next to impossible. Is it really? Are you talking about an advisor for employees or for self-employed people/companies? I was searching for a tax advisor two years ago and it took me exactly one attempt to get one. My parents got an appointment within a month as well. Also, unless there are very specific circumstances there is little to no reason for an employee to get an advisor. Most of my friends just use the ELSTER form provided by the Finanzamt or use tax software the purchased which makes it slightly less painful. But I have no clue about how hard it is for companies
- tanto 5y ago
  In most cases your tax consultant does that for you and what they charge is regulated.
- yisonPylkita 5y ago
  I recommend hiring an accountant. For as low as 50€/month I don’t have to worry about filling taxes (I’m programmer on a contract)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- Hamuko 5y ago
  According to the World Bank, the self-employed in Germany account for 9.6% of the total employment. So nine out of ten Germans can still avoid filing taxes, which is pretty good. Interestingly enough, the self-employed actually make up a smaller percentage of total employment in the US at 6.1%. So if the US were to adopt a similar system, it'd be closer to 15 out of 16 Americans.
Reason077 5y ago
> "there's a government-provided online portal for direct communication with the Finanzamt (finance department)." A government provided portal?! Surely this is a case of government over-reach: directly competing with hard working private-sector businesses (tax accountants, tax software makers), destroying jobs and stifling innovation? It would never be allowed in freedom-loving America! /s
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- notanormalnerd 5y ago
  Funnily enough it isn't. Because you can go out and buy one of the programs that are on the market. There is a public interface/api that can be used by the companies to file your taxes. We even have startups doing your taxes with a questionaire on your phone. But the government provides you with a free, basic version, the same they did with the standard forms. There is little help, a bit of explanation but nothing more. And since you have to hand it in digitally now, they are also providing the means to do so. Paper, but digital.
gigatexal 5y ago
HEY! Fellow US ex-pat here in Germany. I do use germantaxes.de which offers a hand-holding experience and all in English but the fact that there's a simple government provided solution is how it should be. All this hate towards FB and others but we really should be reigning in the likes of Intuit because filing taxes should not cost anything for simple W-2's. I recall reading that in Japan if you have just wage income it's more or less automatic. Imagine that!
- elthran 5y ago
  Not just Japan, also true for the UK with our Pay As You Earn system - you get assigned a tax code, and the appropriate amount is automatically deducted from your payslip. No need to file anything, and refunds/demands get generated automatically each year if you've been changing jobs/not working/other odd circumstances meaning that the amount you paid doesn't match what you were expected to
  - gigatexal 5y ago
    wow now that's a killer feature that might be just enough to get me to move there than somewhere else. More governments should be looking into replicating this.
  - Hamuko 5y ago
    >Not just Japan, also true for the UK with our Pay As You Earn system It's true for most of the world. It's a bit like metric vs. imperial – the US is the odd one out.
  - throwaway898989 5y ago
    The "Pay-As-You-Earn" system was introduced in Australia and the UK during WW2 lol. The US has the same system its just been implemented extremely poorly
    - JackFr 5y ago
      It's not that it's implemented poorly. It's that 1) the federal government collects multiple kinds of taxes out out of your paycheck. Social security, medicare and regular income tax are different. Income tax rates are progressive while the payroll taxes are flat but capped at a certain amount. 2) Additionally forty-two states have income taxes as do dozens of local municipalities. Consider that they also don't treat residents and non residents alike. Consider a couple who live in New York City, where one partner works in Connecticut and the other works in New Jersey. There are potentially 6 different entities collecting income tax there. That being said - fully agree - tax filing software should be free for everyone.
missinfo 5y ago
"They persuaded the Internal Revenue Service for more than a decade..." "The tax preparation industry guided Washington down a different path." Be even more upset with the IRS and politicians. They are literally responsible for this. They make the laws. Don't let them shift blame. They should have told Intuit to pound sand. This is like a kid that gets caught doing something bad and blames their friends. They told me to do it! It's their fault. Here would be the honest translation: I took their money and went against the best interests of my voters, and now I'm going to shift all blame while accepting no responsibility for my actions. Furthermore, I'm going to reframe this as though I was the good guy trying to save you.
- burkaman 5y ago
  If I found out my kid's friend gave them $1000 to jump off a bridge, I think I'd be equally mad at both of them.
  - missinfo 5y ago
    Sure, but in this case these are adults and they know exactly what they are doing. Intuit didn't force them by gunpoint. The politicians have agency here and are ultimately responsible. They chose to put their donors over their voters. And now they are trying to frame this as though they are hapless victims who tried to save the nation? No.
    - burkaman 5y ago
      Yeah I think we're agreeing, they're both to blame. I guess the reason it might feel like people are blaming Intuit more is that they literally shouldn't exist, they owe everything to this bullshit arrangement, so it's easier to make blanket statements. I don't want the IRS to disappear, I just want it to make better decisions about this particular issue. But I do want Intuit to disappear because it's a completely worthless parasite. That doesn't mean the people running Intuit are worse than the politicians making decisions about the IRS, it's just easier to make a singular judgement about their organization.
- 5y ago
guerrilla 5y ago
> but it's trivial now due to FIEC What do you mean?
- junon 5y ago
  Foreign Income Earned Credit. Basically since the US is one of two countries in the world to still collect taxes from people living abroad, you have to file taxes every year still but it usually amounts to a net of $0.00 as it's written off under double-tax agreements with Germany.
  - marvel_boy 5y ago
    Which is the second country?
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      Eritrea but somewhere I heard Liberia does too.
  - junar 5y ago
    You are conflating two different tax benefits. The Foreign Earned Income Exclusion essentially sets your tax rate to 0% for the first $108k of earned income. It has no effect on earned income in excess of this threshold, or on unearned income such as investment income. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore... The Foreign Tax Credit subtracts your foreign tax liability from your US tax liability. In other words, you only pay US taxes to the extent they exceed the foreign tax rate. You can use it on any type of income, but you only get a benefit if the foreign country actually taxes the income. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-tax-credit https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore... You may not double dip: So if you choose to take FEIE for some part of your income, you cannot take FTC on the same part of your income. However, you can take FTC to the extent you have income not eligible for FEIE.
    - 5y ago
74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago
Being German it feels weird reading someone praise our tax system. The problem here is that you almost always pay too much tax and will be reimbursed when filing a return while at the same time the German Finanzamt already has the required information to do that on its own. But it won't. End of story is that tax returns are exclusive to people educated enough to take of it. And even if you take care of it in an informed way doesn't mean you will be reimbursed fully. For that you'd need to hire a tax attorney in many non-trivial cases.
brighton36 5y ago
I don't blame intuit at all. I blame citizens for losing their representation in government.

by junon 5y ago

tromp 5y ago

Why assign all the blame to Intuit? > They persuaded the Internal Revenue Service for more than a decade to pledge in writing not to adopt California’s innovation or develop any other offerings that threatened their business model. I think the IRS deserves much of the blame for yielding to Intuit's persuasion. Every American should be upset with both Intuit and the IRS.

iammisc 5y ago
I'm just upset with the IRS. The IRS officers hold a position of public trust. Intuit does not.
- Maarten88 5y ago
  Isn't the IRS just executing the policies that elected politicians decide? It seems the IRS wanted to do the right thing 20 years ago, but they were stopped by politicians who were corrupted by lobbyists. Maybe US people should elect politicians that represent them instead of business. And stop buying the incredible amounts of double-speak that is always present in discussions like these.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Yes. I should restate... I'm not mad at low-level IRS employees. Rather the ones nominated and approved by Congress, who ultimately make these decisions.
    - garmaine 5y ago
      It is Converse that makes these decisions, no? The IRS just does what it is told.
      - iammisc 5y ago
        yes, in some regards, no in others.
        jaywalk 5y ago
        Yes, in any regard that matters. The IRS cannot just decide to start doing this. They have to follow the law.
      - equality_1138 5y ago
        I'm not mad at congress, I'm mad at the fools who keep voting for them.
        quantified 5y ago
        Those fools can only vote for whoever is running. Given a slate of candidates, if only one vote is cast by anyone, you will have a winner. And so it goes.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  I expect Intuit, and every other company where responsibility is sufficiently large that nobody feels personally responsible for the company's actions, to do heinous things to make a buck if the option presents itself. Whereas the IRS, and every other government agency, is supposedly trying to help society or at least not hurt it.
- eropple 5y ago
  There is a school of thought, and I tend to agree with it, that "a position of public trust" is exactly and specifically what is granted to a corporation by granting it its special, fictive-person, liability-shielding status. The veneration of "corporations as psychopaths" is more of a deification of the current state, not an aspirational one. It doesn't have to be that way, and so we absolutely can fault Intuit for acting against that public trust. Intuit has responsibilities to the society that grants it its charter, and that includes not peeing in the public pool. (That school of thought, yeah, puts most companies in a real bad light. And? Well? Yes. They have earned it.)
  - iammisc 5y ago
    > granted to a corporation by granting it its special, fictive-person, liability-shielding status. There is no such thing. This is such a silly argument made by people who have no understanding of corporate liability laws. Incorporating doesn't suddenly shield you from liability. If you were negligent or intended harm, you will be held personally liable. If you're a shareholder and knew what was going on, you will also be held liable. The issue is not incorporation, it's a government too timid to enforce the law.
    - eropple 5y ago
      I'm well aware of how corporate liability laws work, thank you. Intuit advocating to indirectly damage the body politic to increase their profits is not negligence. It is also wrong. The divide, and the hole in the modern theory of the corporation, is obvious when one is not hiding the cards. It is a moral failure and a failure of social distinction, not a legal one. I understand why that shorts your circuit. It exists nevertheless.
tehwebguy 5y ago
On the federal level almost every bad thing that happens and good thing that doesn't happen is the fault of the senate.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Which necessarily means that every good thing that happens and every bad thing that doesn't happen is also the fault of the senate. I don't agree, I'm just logically expanding your statement.
- tekknik 5y ago
  On the flip / non-left side my view is the same, but with Pelosi and the house.
Retric 5y ago
The IRS doesn’t get to make these rules, that’s up to congress and then the president.
mmmBacon 5y ago
This isn’t the fault of the IRS. The IRS can only do what Congress allows them to do. It’s the fault of Congress. In fact the 2 key Congresswomen responsible are Zoe Lofgren and Anna Eshoo. I currently live in Eshoo’s district but I can tell you she is completely unresponsive to you if you don’t live in Atherton or Palo Alto. I have never seen her campaign once. Her district is sprawling and includes 3 counties in the Bay Area and communities that have almost nothing in common. Her district includes Atherton, Menlo Park, Palo Alto, MountainView as well as South San Jose and Scott’s Valley. The district is designed to ensure she never has to face a re-election challenge. It’s almost impossible to enact change with the way this system is arranged.
- ulfw 5y ago
  Geez. She is still there? I remember writing her 16 years ago when I was at Stanford and had an issue. Of course neither she (nor her office) ever bothered to respond. Wow.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    Nice Stanford name drop.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  Eshoo should be voted out. https://eshoo.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-eshoo-introduces-hr-5114-tax-return-choice-act https://eshoo.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-eshoo-intro... Unfortunately, editorials favor incumbents too much to allow an attack from the left to succeed. https://www.stanforddaily.com/2020/03/01/why-we-endorse-incumbent-anna-eshoo-for-18th-congressional-district/ https://www.stanforddaily.com/2020/03/01/why-we-endorse-incu... and https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/10/28/editorial-eshoo/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/10/28/editorial-eshoo/
- tromp 5y ago
  How can only 2 congress people be responsible? Surely all the other members would have had a say as well in legislating IRS policy?
slg 5y ago
Intuit is lobbying in defense of their entire industry. Almost every company of their size would do the same thing in their situation. The people who deserve the blame here are the people who are susceptible to those lobbying efforts. Blame Congress.
- nielsbot 5y ago
  I blame the rules that let this happen. In general, people are gonna people.
  - slg 5y ago
    Not coincidentally the people who make the rules are the people who I said to blame.
  - isleyaardvark 5y ago
    This is entirely too cynical and pessimistic. In particular others have pointed out that other countries do not do this, and it’s not like they aren’t people.
    - nielsbot 5y ago
      I disagree--those other countries operate under different rules. Power does corrupt.
      - croon 5y ago
        Different rules that those people set up. Power can't be created or destroyed, it can only converted from one form to another. I'd much rather power reside with people and what they can vote for, rather than let it all fall to mega-corps.
- tekknik 5y ago
  Why don’t we blame the intuit employees while we’re at it? If they had no employees then they wouldn’t be in business? So does this mean it’s actually the citizens fault?
jandrese 5y ago
There is a strong contingent in Congress that believes that it is only moral for it to be annoying and expensive to pay taxes, as they believe that taxes should be opposed by the masses. If taxes are too easy then people won't think about them, and will simply enjoy the services the government provides with them, which is tyranny. This is also why the US keeps sales tax separate instead of rolling it into the price of the item like Europe. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/american-tax-returns-dont-need-be-painful/586369/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/american-t...
- wahern 5y ago
  Not all states preclude including sales tax in advertised prices. According to this website, https://www.taxjar.com/blog/retail/can-retailer-include-sales-tax-in-the-price https://www.taxjar.com/blog/retail/can-retailer-include-sale..., and by a quick count, at least 20 states permit combined pricing without any more limitation than a posted sign. That count excludes states which only permit it for a limited set of products and services, or which require sales tax to be itemized on the receipt. Perhaps you're confusing VAT vs sales tax, which is an entirely different issue, and while some politicians might prefer a sales tax on the presumption of its conspicuousness, the real debate regarding adopting VAT is far more complex. VAT does seem to be the darling of many economists, but those economists also tend to overlook the fact that Europe has significantly larger grey and black markets, as well as more tax evasion, than the U.S.; and some of that difference is arguably a consequence of the mechanics of VAT and the general preference for hiding the taxation system from individuals. It's also worth noting that there are good reasons for itemizing sales tax separately. For example, for individuals state sales tax can be deducted from federal income, but not the cost of the item itself.
- vinay427 5y ago
  > This is also why the US keeps sales tax separate instead of rolling it into the price of the item like Europe. Even in a relatively federalized (by European standards) country like Switzerland, the VAT is set nationally. This isn’t the case in the US, and several states even have different sales tax rates in each city. It would be a considerable logistical mess to coordinate integrated sales tax signposting, both from a business and consumer perspective. Amazon already handles this somewhat awkwardly by changing store prices if you set your location on Amazon.de to Switzerland, with the prices somewhat unpredictably changing if it decided to remember your location preferences, and no longer following common numbering conventions (e.g. x.99).

locallost 5y ago

Living in Germany it's difficult to understand somebody saying nice things about their tax system :-). It almost caused a divorce for me, several times. But ok, if you don't file then it's understandable. But you should as you are almost always getting money back. For around 200 you can find somebody to do it for you and it will still be worth it.

progx 5y ago

But only für employees! As an independent or small company owner you have todo it every year.

junon 5y ago
Right, most people are employees though. Germany has another problem though - getting a Steuerberater (tax advisor) to help you with the paperwork as a business owner is next to impossible.
- moooo99 5y ago
  > getting a Steuerberater (tax advisor) to help you with the paperwork as a business owner is next to impossible. Is it really? Are you talking about an advisor for employees or for self-employed people/companies? I was searching for a tax advisor two years ago and it took me exactly one attempt to get one. My parents got an appointment within a month as well. Also, unless there are very specific circumstances there is little to no reason for an employee to get an advisor. Most of my friends just use the ELSTER form provided by the Finanzamt or use tax software the purchased which makes it slightly less painful. But I have no clue about how hard it is for companies
tanto 5y ago
In most cases your tax consultant does that for you and what they charge is regulated.
yisonPylkita 5y ago
I recommend hiring an accountant. For as low as 50€/month I don’t have to worry about filling taxes (I’m programmer on a contract)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Hamuko 5y ago
According to the World Bank, the self-employed in Germany account for 9.6% of the total employment. So nine out of ten Germans can still avoid filing taxes, which is pretty good. Interestingly enough, the self-employed actually make up a smaller percentage of total employment in the US at 6.1%. So if the US were to adopt a similar system, it'd be closer to 15 out of 16 Americans.

Reason077 5y ago

> "there's a government-provided online portal for direct communication with the Finanzamt (finance department)." A government provided portal?! Surely this is a case of government over-reach: directly competing with hard working private-sector businesses (tax accountants, tax software makers), destroying jobs and stifling innovation? It would never be allowed in freedom-loving America! /s

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
notanormalnerd 5y ago
Funnily enough it isn't. Because you can go out and buy one of the programs that are on the market. There is a public interface/api that can be used by the companies to file your taxes. We even have startups doing your taxes with a questionaire on your phone. But the government provides you with a free, basic version, the same they did with the standard forms. There is little help, a bit of explanation but nothing more. And since you have to hand it in digitally now, they are also providing the means to do so. Paper, but digital.

gigatexal 5y ago

HEY! Fellow US ex-pat here in Germany. I do use germantaxes.de which offers a hand-holding experience and all in English but the fact that there's a simple government provided solution is how it should be. All this hate towards FB and others but we really should be reigning in the likes of Intuit because filing taxes should not cost anything for simple W-2's. I recall reading that in Japan if you have just wage income it's more or less automatic. Imagine that!

elthran 5y ago
Not just Japan, also true for the UK with our Pay As You Earn system - you get assigned a tax code, and the appropriate amount is automatically deducted from your payslip. No need to file anything, and refunds/demands get generated automatically each year if you've been changing jobs/not working/other odd circumstances meaning that the amount you paid doesn't match what you were expected to
- gigatexal 5y ago
  wow now that's a killer feature that might be just enough to get me to move there than somewhere else. More governments should be looking into replicating this.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  >Not just Japan, also true for the UK with our Pay As You Earn system It's true for most of the world. It's a bit like metric vs. imperial – the US is the odd one out.
- throwaway898989 5y ago
  The "Pay-As-You-Earn" system was introduced in Australia and the UK during WW2 lol. The US has the same system its just been implemented extremely poorly
  - JackFr 5y ago
    It's not that it's implemented poorly. It's that 1) the federal government collects multiple kinds of taxes out out of your paycheck. Social security, medicare and regular income tax are different. Income tax rates are progressive while the payroll taxes are flat but capped at a certain amount. 2) Additionally forty-two states have income taxes as do dozens of local municipalities. Consider that they also don't treat residents and non residents alike. Consider a couple who live in New York City, where one partner works in Connecticut and the other works in New Jersey. There are potentially 6 different entities collecting income tax there. That being said - fully agree - tax filing software should be free for everyone.

missinfo 5y ago

"They persuaded the Internal Revenue Service for more than a decade..." "The tax preparation industry guided Washington down a different path." Be even more upset with the IRS and politicians. They are literally responsible for this. They make the laws. Don't let them shift blame. They should have told Intuit to pound sand. This is like a kid that gets caught doing something bad and blames their friends. They told me to do it! It's their fault. Here would be the honest translation: I took their money and went against the best interests of my voters, and now I'm going to shift all blame while accepting no responsibility for my actions. Furthermore, I'm going to reframe this as though I was the good guy trying to save you.

burkaman 5y ago
If I found out my kid's friend gave them $1000 to jump off a bridge, I think I'd be equally mad at both of them.
- missinfo 5y ago
  Sure, but in this case these are adults and they know exactly what they are doing. Intuit didn't force them by gunpoint. The politicians have agency here and are ultimately responsible. They chose to put their donors over their voters. And now they are trying to frame this as though they are hapless victims who tried to save the nation? No.
  - burkaman 5y ago
    Yeah I think we're agreeing, they're both to blame. I guess the reason it might feel like people are blaming Intuit more is that they literally shouldn't exist, they owe everything to this bullshit arrangement, so it's easier to make blanket statements. I don't want the IRS to disappear, I just want it to make better decisions about this particular issue. But I do want Intuit to disappear because it's a completely worthless parasite. That doesn't mean the people running Intuit are worse than the politicians making decisions about the IRS, it's just easier to make a singular judgement about their organization.
5y ago

guerrilla 5y ago

> but it's trivial now due to FIEC What do you mean?

junon 5y ago
Foreign Income Earned Credit. Basically since the US is one of two countries in the world to still collect taxes from people living abroad, you have to file taxes every year still but it usually amounts to a net of $0.00 as it's written off under double-tax agreements with Germany.
- marvel_boy 5y ago
  Which is the second country?
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Eritrea but somewhere I heard Liberia does too.
- junar 5y ago
  You are conflating two different tax benefits. The Foreign Earned Income Exclusion essentially sets your tax rate to 0% for the first $108k of earned income. It has no effect on earned income in excess of this threshold, or on unearned income such as investment income. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore... The Foreign Tax Credit subtracts your foreign tax liability from your US tax liability. In other words, you only pay US taxes to the extent they exceed the foreign tax rate. You can use it on any type of income, but you only get a benefit if the foreign country actually taxes the income. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-tax-credit https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore... You may not double dip: So if you choose to take FEIE for some part of your income, you cannot take FTC on the same part of your income. However, you can take FTC to the extent you have income not eligible for FEIE.
  - 5y ago

74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago

Being German it feels weird reading someone praise our tax system. The problem here is that you almost always pay too much tax and will be reimbursed when filing a return while at the same time the German Finanzamt already has the required information to do that on its own. But it won't. End of story is that tax returns are exclusive to people educated enough to take of it. And even if you take care of it in an informed way doesn't mean you will be reimbursed fully. For that you'd need to hire a tax attorney in many non-trivial cases.

brighton36 5y ago

I don't blame intuit at all. I blame citizens for losing their representation in government.