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Tesla's German plant hits snag as public consultation repeated
- Reason077 5y agoTesla's German factory does seem to be encountering more than its fair share of regulatory snags and delays, even by German standards. You have to wonder if perhaps some of Germany's incumbent automakers are pulling the strings of friendly politicians, ensuring that progress does not go too smoothly or quickly for Tesla?
- nelsonic 5y agoIt's difficult not get conspiratorial when it comes to incumbents protecting their empires; it's a lot easier call-in a favour with a politician than to build better electric cars ... But Tesla did try to rush the process so this is fairly expected. However you would really think that the environmental ministry could fast-track this considering how much (Net) positive impact it will have.
- fileeditview 5y agoNet positive impact including the "usage" of 372000 liters of water per hour [1]. [1] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/372-000-liter-pro-stunde-wofuer-braucht-teslas-gigafactory-in-gruenheide-so-viel-wasser/25530750.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/372-000-liter-pro-stu...
- nelsonic 5y agoGreat read, thanks for sharing. Water use is a bit of a misnomer though. It's not like agriculture where the water gets "fed" to plants and mostly evaporates. Tesla plans to recycle/reuse most of the water at the Giga Berlin plant: https://insideevs.com/news/526187/tesla-minimizes-water-use-gigaberlin/ https://insideevs.com/news/526187/tesla-minimizes-water-use-... And yes, the positive impact of electric cars even considering all raw materials and water is unequivocal.
- formerly_proven 5y agoMore likely incompetence; legendary BER (10 years delayed, construction went on for 15 years or so) is just a few km from this site.
- cyberpunk 5y agoThat wasn't incompetence, a lot of people got really rich building that...
- ChuckNorris89 5y agoAre you saying in Germany there are enough rich greedy German businessesmen who will further enrich themselves so obviously on taxpayer money with the help of German politicians feigning corruption as incompetence? In Germany, the most efficient country in Europe? Nein, I can't believe that! Everyone knows only South/Eastern Europe is corrupt, never Germany. /s
- formerly_proven 5y agoAt higher levels I'd actually say incompetence and corruption are basically synonymous in Germany. Even when people casually mention incompetence (e.g. Andreas "Andi" Scheuer), they know and mean corruption, just not proven (yet). Germany somehow manages to have the reputation that there isn't "low level corruption", though there is plenty of that to go around.
- cyberpunk 5y agoHaving worked closely with a lot of C levels in Automotive, Banking and now Energy in Germany, I can easily say this is the most corrupt place I've ever worked. Morally and Financially..
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago>this is the most corrupt place I've ever worked Out of curiosity, what are your other points of comparison?
- cyberpunk 5y agoBy German standards they're actually doing remarkably well so far. I imagine we'll screw it up very shortly though, one does not simply bypass the central bureaucracy and expect to get away with it. I give it a 50/50 that they'll have to pull out of Germany, losing all the money they put in so far.
- sveme 5y agoNever. That would be disastrous for all politicians involved. Tesla has support from the highest ranks of the state government.
- rsynnott 5y agoThe politicians don't control the process, though, or at least in a well-ordered state they shouldn't. There are rules, which are adjudicated by the civil service and ultimately the courts, not the local politicians.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- k__ 5y agoWouldn't surprise me. German automakers are well known for their lobbying
- HanaShiratori 5y agoIf they were so remarkable in lobbying then tesla probably wouldn't be able to start building their factory in the first place.
- karxxm 5y agoTesla does not yet have an official construction permit for the plant. They have simply started building at risk.
- HanaShiratori 5y agoThey have been granted multiple permits, however the final and most important one is still missing - yes. But there is a high likelihood that they will be getting this one as well - at least according to the latest information I could find...
- sho_hn 5y agoIt's a huge slice of the GDP, what do you expect? I mean, let's compare this to the rather celebrated South Korean court decision to force Google/Apple into giving up control over in-app payments: Great for the customers and for competition and for developers, but it's also no accident it happened in a country where Samsung has every business interest in the outcome.
- k__ 5y agoYes, it's really sad.
- nelsonic 5y agoIt's difficult not get conspiratorial when it comes to incumbents protecting their empires. But Tesla did try to rush the process so this is fairly expected. However you would really think that the environmental ministry could fast-track this considering how much (Net) positive impact it will have.
- lucideer 5y agoHow much net positive impact will it have?
- delecti 5y agoMy understanding of the situation is that German permitting is pretty complicated, so normally companies wait before diving in so everything is cleared up first. You can imagine that kind of restraint isn't Tesla's style, so rather than clearing hurdles from the track ahead of time, they're just running into each one. I'm not familiar enough to know if there are more or worse hurdles in this specific instance, but it definitely makes for a juicier headline when Tesla slams into a hurdle than when another company deals with it before they've broken ground.
- _Microft 5y agoThat Tesla's way of operating has lots of potential to clash with German bureaucracy/culture is certainly true to some degree but in this case, an administrative process was changed with possibly not enough time in advance for everyone to notice or react. Since the office is unsure how the change would hold up in court, they are re-doing it out of an abundance of caution. (At least this is how I read the article.)
- 0x0nyandesu 5y agoMaybe headlines like this are necessary to create change?
- akie 5y agoWhat good is it to have a legislative body, elections, and laws, if we then allow rich companies to ignore these laws at their discretion?
- 0x0nyandesu 5y agoTechnocrats love to imagine that their laws are infallible unfortunately laws must always be challenged regularly or else you will end up with too much regulation over time as political momentum encourages new laws to constantly be added while old laws are rarely reexamined. That's why you've got places where anal is still illegal.
- rsynnott 5y ago
- V__ 5y agoPersonally, I find it more likely that some executives thought they could skirt some regulations because they are creating jobs and local officials will look the other way or make some exception. At least that is the impression one often gets when looking how things get done in the US.
- lm28469 5y ago> they are creating jobs As I understand they'll mostly be filled by the polish workforce, they didn't built it so close to the border for no reason. https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/en/building-delays-at-tesla-car-production-unlikely-to-start-in-summer-li.155988 https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/en/building-delays-at-tesla-...
- credit_guy 5y agoBut just for clarity, this is completely legal, isn't it? Polish people have the right to work in the EU, like all the other EU residents, or not?
- _Microft 5y agoYes, this is one of the freedoms [0] of the European Single Market, in particular this one [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#%22Four_Freedoms%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#%22Four... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#Free_movement_of_workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#Free_mo...
- TAForObvReasons 5y agoThe playbook in the US is to argue that a factory will create US jobs. State and local governments are willing to play ball with the expectation of increased activity and taxes. Building a plant on the US-Mexico border will not be seen as kindly if it's perceived that they are not using US labor.
- nicoburns 5y agoYes, but it may not bring enough goodwill for regulators to ignore other things they are doing which may be illegal which was the suggestion up-thread.
- stetrain 5y agoFrom what I've seen Tesla is trying to push through this factory from land acquisition to first production at an extraordinarily fast pace. These projects usually take many years and Tesla tried to basically do it in one and is annoyed that it is stretching out to two. In the big picture 2-3 years to get a new large auto factory online is pretty normal. There are definitely some parallels to SpaceX in Boca Chica, TX. They both are hitting regulatory delays, but stepping back it seems they are the result of intentionally trying to "move fast and break things" with their development timelines.
- sschueller 5y agoThat is definitely the case in Boca Chica, TX and there may even be a conflict of interests with the environmental assessment being used instead of the full environmental study. SpaceX is going way beyond what was originally permitted by the FAA. Edit: Citation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bdkcoiFaN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bdkcoiFaN0
- bryanlarsen 5y agoWhat is "way beyond"? They're permitted for a 27 engine kerosene rocket, they want to switch to a 33 engine methane rocket. A kerosene spill is much worse locally than a methane spill since methane evaporates. They're hoping to add a 250MW power plant which would be a major change but that would be part of a different environmental assessment.
- mr_luc 5y agoCitation needed -- and that silly TechCrunch article isn't a citation. They raised a howl because the plans say they will start on a power plant, whose impact is considered -- but 'oh my goodness, where will the gas come from? A well? Trucks? Oh my!' Well -- that literally may not be known yet, as is when and whether they'd get close to running it at anything like capacity. And that's not a problem; Texas has power plant regulators, and pipelines have their own paperwork and process. The FAA regulating this is a bit funny anyway. :) Eventually that'll change, but right now they're doing a good job handling these weird corners of their responsibility with grace.
- rsynnott 5y agoI mean, it being Tesla, my guess would be that they just didn't do their homework.
- ahartmetz 5y agoA big immediate cause of problems seems to be hundreds of official protests from local citizens and (not necessarily local) environmentalist groups. Whether or not German car companies have something to do with that is anyone's guess (no sarcasm).
- hnbad 5y agoIncidentally the conservative chancellor candidate that took a media opportunity with Musk to demonstrate his otherwise non-existent interest in renewable energy not only lost the election but also displayed so much incompetence over the last year that his party saw him as radioactive enough to replace him in all of his positions. It's possible the problem isn't so much that regulators are trying to play dirty against Musk but so inept at trying to cut corners to win this "prestige project" that they actually cause overhead by being caught and having to do things again properly. I'd say generally speaking Tesla's perception in Germany is positive and politicians are more inclined to bend rules in Tesla's favors rather than against. There are just limitations to what you can get away with.
- sho_hn 5y ago> Incidentally the conservative chancellor candidate that took a media opportunity with Musk to demonstrate his otherwise non-existent interest in renewable energy not only lost the election but also displayed so much incompetence over the last year that his party saw him as radioactive enough to replace him in all of his positions. That said, the major angel for the Tesla project is the local state government of Brandenburg, which is led by the SPD, the party that emerged strongest in the national election. The CDU is also in Brandenburg's gov coalition, but I don't think Laschet's (national CDU candidate) Musk election campaign media stunt had much relation to anything.
- hnbad 5y agoSure, my point was more that for many politicians and public officials this is an easy prestige project. "E-mobility" is a big talking point in German politics. We also have a proud history of industrial corruption in Germany (we call it "Klüngel" because that sounds nicer), especially when it comes to public construction projects. I find it a lot more likely that the failures are the result of a mix of public officials being overly hasty in trying to pave the road (so to speak) and making promises they couldn't deliver on, than that this is entirely down to traditional car manufacturers using their political leverage against Tesla. Especially given the location of the factory.
- G3rn0ti 5y agoFrom the TFA: > Authorities decided to repeat the process after > environmental groups disputed in a separate case It's environmental NGOs who cause this trouble for Tesla.
- sho_hn 5y agoAs a German: I feel the opposite is the case. This project has received enormous local (and even national) political support (as in, government straight saying "we want this" and leaning on the apparatus to expedite), and has coasted extremely far on temporary permits, sometimes fashioned rather shadily, to become "too big to fail". Some of those permits happened even after Tesla proactively violated rules by just building things without asking, as I understand, factoring penalties into business plans and relying on lenient interpretation. Germany's incumbent automakers are probably rather incensed about Tesla getting to build a major factory on Easy Mode here and having to put little effort into understanding the process or the culture. I don't have any particular opinion on whether this is good or bad at the moment, but it's certainly fascinating to follow ...
- DemocracyFTW 5y ago> pulling the strings of friendly politicians You are no doubt referring to the Brandenburg state premier who entered into totally democratic secret negotiations with Tesla and then presented the imminent construction of the factory as fait accompli to his surprised electorate?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- bserge 5y agoI guess Tesla knows better, but wouldn't another country be a better choice?
- LightG 5y ago"Better" should be defined ... do you mean "better" as in one more willing to bend over for them?
- cyberpunk 5y agoThe location is a bit weird also. Ingolstadt or similar they’d at least be able to find a lot of staff, I think it may be tricky around Berlin.. Time will tell I guess.
- mitjam 5y agoWolfsburg is a 1h 7min train ride away. Quite a few commute from Berlin. Berlin has three large universities and some smaller ones. Still, the real automotive hotspots like Stuttgart area would have been more attractive but there was certainly headwind from incumbents.
- maverwa 5y agoFor context: Berlin is one (or the) central for IT jobs and startups, but for car manufacturing Ingolstadt, Stuttgart or Wolfsburg would be more „traditional“ choices, since that’s where the big car makers are. Oh, and the Ruhrarea ofc.
- ahartmetz 5y agoOTOH, unemployment is average in the region and wages and salaries are below average (maybe not in IT anymore). Traditional car industry regions have low unemployment and high wages and salaries - IG Metall, the traditional union of the car industry, is very strong. It will be interesting to see how Tesla deals with the unions. Wal-Mart had its troubles with that.
- G3rn0ti 5y agoDue to being partly surrounded by a big wall until 30 years ago and being governed by its own state legislature, Berlin's urban sprawl is still pretty limited and land is aplenty in the surrounding state called "Brandenburg". So it's much cheaper to buy land there compared to (South)Western German areas.
- masswerk 5y ago> In his two-year battle to get production running at the site, Musk has expressed irritation at German laws and processes, arguing complex planning requirements were at odds with the urgency needed to fight climate change. Meanwhile, SpaceX is going to build a 250MW gas power station in Boca Chica to be run 24/7…
- bryanlarsen 5y agoCitation needed on the 24/7. A launch complex probably has much higher peak power usage than steady state usage.
- masswerk 5y agoSpaceX said they wanted to run production 24/7 and this is meant to power production (not fuel processing). Regarding emissions: > SpaceX estimates that it would produce 47,522 metric tons of carbon dioxide equivalent per year once the entire Starship base kicks into high gear. The power plant alone will contribute 9,858 metric tons of carbon dioxide equivalent emissions per year. However, as per the tabulation by ESG Hound, the emissions from this power plant are likely to exceed 1 million tons of CO2 equivalent per year. [0] https://wccftech.com/as-spacex-gears-up-to-build-natural-gas-related-infrastructure-in-an-ecologically-sensitive-area-environmental-concerns-take-a-backseat/ https://wccftech.com/as-spacex-gears-up-to-build-natural-gas...
- masswerk 5y agoRegarding the credibility of said statement, also mind that – depending on estimates and your local mix of energy production – the rather high CO2 footprint of long-range battery production is only offset after 3.5 – 15 years of average use [0]. Where average use is US millage, with millages being typically lower in Europe. So Tesla Europe will not be saving the world. What it really does, is relocating the source of emissions. [0] Compare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM and studies referred to in the description.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
- DemocracyFTW 5y agoMusk: "complex planning requirements [are] at odds with the urgency needed to fight climate change"—IOW "get out of my way already, I'm important". If we want to fight climate change and reduce emissions, we'd better not switch from fossil fuel SUVs to luxury EVs, but rather turn to alternatives like living more locally, and using trains a lot more. But that step is not what is being promoted, surprise, and it's also not a step that many people are ready to do. They fiercely identify with their vehicles and can become quite aggressive whenever one threatens to make owning a car more expensive. At least, should climate change 'happen one day' (/s), they'll have a car to drive somewhere else (again, /s).
- bryanlarsen 5y agoAnother Elon Musk company is building what is basically a subway in Las Vegas.
- rsynnott 5y agoWell, a subway but much, much worse, realistically. It's a 'subway' that has a lower capacity than a decent BRT line.
- bryanlarsen 5y agoVegas doesn't have the population to support a subway, so the tunnel is properly sized. If Vegas did have a subway, it wouldn't have enough population to run every few minutes, so you'd have to wait a long time for the train. With the small cars you don't have to wait, and you get the equivalent of an express train every time. But the big advantage is the cost -- subways cost hundreds of millions per mile.
- DemocracyFTW 5y agoYou mean the one Adam Something was so enthusiastic about? /s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvK2i9Jxy5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvK2i9Jxy5c https://www.youtube.com/c/AdamSomething/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/AdamSomething/videos