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I think there is nothing wrong with PHP if you are using it for what it was built for and you aren't pretending it's something it's not. It's the people saying

by jpgvm 5y ago

I think there is nothing wrong with PHP if you are using it for what it was built for and you aren't pretending it's something it's not. It's the people saying "PHP is the best language for building web apps in 2021" that are problematic. No. It's simply not. We have come a long way since then and that view point can only be held out of ignorance. That isn't to say you can't build awesome stuff in PHP, you can and in your case did. But to say PHP > Java/C#/Rust/Elixir/etc is just being an edgelord for the sake of it. Language tech improved, PHP didn't come with it. That is fine, C didn't come with it either but it still has it's place. Right tool right job, PHP can still be the right choice for lots of things if you have experience with it and can use it to make the thing you want.

conradfr 5y ago
PHP did evolve, and still is.
TrispusAttucks 5y ago
> It's the people saying "PHP is the best language for building web apps in 2021" that are problematic. OP didn't say this. > No. It's simply not. We have come a long way since then and that view point can only be held out of ignorance. > Language tech improved, PHP didn't come with it. Are you familiar with the changelogs over the past 10 years? Are you ignorant of the changelogs? > But to say PHP > Java/C#/Rust/Elixir/etc is just being an edgelord for the sake of it. OP isn't saying that. > Right tool right job, PHP can still be the right choice for lots of things if you have experience with it and can use it to make the thing you want. Isn't this true of any language?
- jpgvm 5y ago
  I was agreeing with OP. You can use PHP, just don't be someone like you and it's fine.
josephd79 5y ago
Weird, I thought there was a resurgence of web app developers using React|VueJS on the frontend and Laravel (PHP framework) on the backend?
thrusong 5y ago
I'm not saying you're wrong or your point isn't valid, but I think it's subjective. PHP developers are highly sought after in my fair Canadian city's web community. Not saying WordPress and PHP are ubiquitous, but the big players for web shops and even boutique agencies are using them. It's my niche and one that's still lucrative, and since it's what industry needs and demands, it's what we teach at my workplace: a post-secondary college. It may not be the best language or the best tool overall, but in my experience it almost always has been. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon and it's constantly getting better, so I'm going to stick with my niche and keep turning to this really powerful tool.
- jpgvm 5y ago
  I think you are correct. It sounds like PHP works well for the problems you solve. I think it's similar to saying Python is the best choice for data science. It is. Not because it's a good language (it's not) but because due to factors like ecosystem it's the right tool for the job. There is nothing wrong with embracing these local maximums. I'm just tired of people asserting PHP is an -objectively- good/comparable language. Because it's not, for all of it's improvements it's still not close. Is that ok? I think it is. Still solves problems effectively. My "objectively inferior" language is Ruby. I use it all the time to do all sorts of things, little web servers, home automation, scripts on my desktop/laptop, etc. I like it, it works for me. Doesn't change the fact Ruby is flat out inferior to the languages I use at work.
throwaway2016a 5y ago
> Language tech improved, PHP didn't come with it. I'm curious what you are basing that on? PHP is not a fixed language. 8.0 was just released last year and has significant improvements. And has had several minor releases since (latest one being just weeks ago). It has a package manager, a community of OSS libraries, tooling... everything a mature language has. According to Github in the last month: > 36 authors have pushed 311 commits to master and 329 commits to all branches. On master, 413 files have changed and there have been 19,469 additions and 7,581 deletions. Not including popular libraries like CakePHP, Laravel, Wordpress, Drupal, etc. All of which are also very active with hundreds (if not thousands for some) of contributors. That doesn't seem stagnant to me. Edit: As a note, I don't even use PHP anymore (though I used to a lot in the past). I'm just confused by how someone can say it hasn't evolved with the times. If anything PHP has proven time and time again it is in fact willing to involve. With releases that make leaps and bounds for performance (with benchmarks) and add new more "modern" features consistently for over a two decades.
- jpgvm 5y ago
  I guess it depends on what your bar is. I'm comparing it against Java/C# primarily. If you compare it to Python then yeah, it looks like a pretty fast moving language, I just don't think that is a relevant comparison when your choices are much broader than just Python or PHP. PHP 8 introduced a lot of great stuff but to me it's just about playing catch up to things like Kotlin, i.e null safe operator, etc. They made the runtime a lot faster with the JIT and the Opcache but it still pales in comparison to the JVM or CLR. Type system is still not a real type system, it's more analogous to Typescript. I get why, it's because you can't turn around and make PHP backwards incompatible, but that is also why it can't ever be in the same class. Meanwhile in JVM land you have things in progress like Loom which present a fundamental change in how highly concurrent applications can be built. Since Java 9 huge things landed like Jigsaw + ZGC and Shenandoah which are cutting edge GCs, not cutting edge for Java but in language-tech overall, i.e it's Java that sets the pace for what a modern VM looks like and that has been the case for some time now. v8 was perhaps more impressive for a short while until InvokeDynamic came along and escape analysis got better but these days JVM is pretty squarely in the lead with CLR closely following. PHP won't ever be on the cutting edge and tbh, that is probably fine. Like I said, C isn't cutting edge and it's just as applicable as ever. The difference between that and what people in this thread are arguing is they are saying things like "PHP is modern and generally good!" which just isn't true. It's improving and that is great, but modern and generally good it is not. Doesn't stop it from being useful in the places it excels but as a general purpose language there are just better options.

by jpgvm 5y ago

conradfr 5y ago

PHP did evolve, and still is.

TrispusAttucks 5y ago

> It's the people saying "PHP is the best language for building web apps in 2021" that are problematic. OP didn't say this. > No. It's simply not. We have come a long way since then and that view point can only be held out of ignorance. > Language tech improved, PHP didn't come with it. Are you familiar with the changelogs over the past 10 years? Are you ignorant of the changelogs? > But to say PHP > Java/C#/Rust/Elixir/etc is just being an edgelord for the sake of it. OP isn't saying that. > Right tool right job, PHP can still be the right choice for lots of things if you have experience with it and can use it to make the thing you want. Isn't this true of any language?

jpgvm 5y ago
I was agreeing with OP. You can use PHP, just don't be someone like you and it's fine.

josephd79 5y ago

Weird, I thought there was a resurgence of web app developers using React|VueJS on the frontend and Laravel (PHP framework) on the backend?

thrusong 5y ago

I'm not saying you're wrong or your point isn't valid, but I think it's subjective. PHP developers are highly sought after in my fair Canadian city's web community. Not saying WordPress and PHP are ubiquitous, but the big players for web shops and even boutique agencies are using them. It's my niche and one that's still lucrative, and since it's what industry needs and demands, it's what we teach at my workplace: a post-secondary college. It may not be the best language or the best tool overall, but in my experience it almost always has been. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon and it's constantly getting better, so I'm going to stick with my niche and keep turning to this really powerful tool.

jpgvm 5y ago
I think you are correct. It sounds like PHP works well for the problems you solve. I think it's similar to saying Python is the best choice for data science. It is. Not because it's a good language (it's not) but because due to factors like ecosystem it's the right tool for the job. There is nothing wrong with embracing these local maximums. I'm just tired of people asserting PHP is an -objectively- good/comparable language. Because it's not, for all of it's improvements it's still not close. Is that ok? I think it is. Still solves problems effectively. My "objectively inferior" language is Ruby. I use it all the time to do all sorts of things, little web servers, home automation, scripts on my desktop/laptop, etc. I like it, it works for me. Doesn't change the fact Ruby is flat out inferior to the languages I use at work.

throwaway2016a 5y ago

> Language tech improved, PHP didn't come with it. I'm curious what you are basing that on? PHP is not a fixed language. 8.0 was just released last year and has significant improvements. And has had several minor releases since (latest one being just weeks ago). It has a package manager, a community of OSS libraries, tooling... everything a mature language has. According to Github in the last month: > 36 authors have pushed 311 commits to master and 329 commits to all branches. On master, 413 files have changed and there have been 19,469 additions and 7,581 deletions. Not including popular libraries like CakePHP, Laravel, Wordpress, Drupal, etc. All of which are also very active with hundreds (if not thousands for some) of contributors. That doesn't seem stagnant to me. Edit: As a note, I don't even use PHP anymore (though I used to a lot in the past). I'm just confused by how someone can say it hasn't evolved with the times. If anything PHP has proven time and time again it is in fact willing to involve. With releases that make leaps and bounds for performance (with benchmarks) and add new more "modern" features consistently for over a two decades.

jpgvm 5y ago
I guess it depends on what your bar is. I'm comparing it against Java/C# primarily. If you compare it to Python then yeah, it looks like a pretty fast moving language, I just don't think that is a relevant comparison when your choices are much broader than just Python or PHP. PHP 8 introduced a lot of great stuff but to me it's just about playing catch up to things like Kotlin, i.e null safe operator, etc. They made the runtime a lot faster with the JIT and the Opcache but it still pales in comparison to the JVM or CLR. Type system is still not a real type system, it's more analogous to Typescript. I get why, it's because you can't turn around and make PHP backwards incompatible, but that is also why it can't ever be in the same class. Meanwhile in JVM land you have things in progress like Loom which present a fundamental change in how highly concurrent applications can be built. Since Java 9 huge things landed like Jigsaw + ZGC and Shenandoah which are cutting edge GCs, not cutting edge for Java but in language-tech overall, i.e it's Java that sets the pace for what a modern VM looks like and that has been the case for some time now. v8 was perhaps more impressive for a short while until InvokeDynamic came along and escape analysis got better but these days JVM is pretty squarely in the lead with CLR closely following. PHP won't ever be on the cutting edge and tbh, that is probably fine. Like I said, C isn't cutting edge and it's just as applicable as ever. The difference between that and what people in this thread are arguing is they are saying things like "PHP is modern and generally good!" which just isn't true. It's improving and that is great, but modern and generally good it is not. Doesn't stop it from being useful in the places it excels but as a general purpose language there are just better options.