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I guess the "stupid question" I'd ask of this article is: why don't you reveal your goals or thought process when challenged after asking a question that might

I guess the "stupid question" I'd ask of this article is: why don't you reveal your goals or thought process when challenged after asking a question that might be perceived as stupid? Take the Apple Store example: why not explain the reason why you were asking for a product by the size of its box when they responded by saying that size of the box does not map to size of the product? Being open about your goal would've probably made it easier and less antagonistic as a process, right?

threatofrain 5y ago
But Dan Luu isn't obviously motivated by a desire to antagonize the Apple employee, and neither is he socially or morally obligated in the slightest to explain his consumer intentions during a purchase at the Apple store. And was the encounter really antagonistic? Dan Luu is the one who left looking stupid.
- entropyie 5y ago
  Consider that the shop is unlikely to have the laptops stored or annotated by box size. Dan was asking the employee to expend considerable additional effort to find the smallest laptop box when he potentially knew the model number, or least had a reason that would justify the extra work. I would have just said "I'm really tight on carry-on space", not to avoid looking stupid, but to assure the employee I wasn't breaking their balls for no reason.
  - genewitch 5y ago
    So you'd lie to the employee? He touches on this later in the article after comparing thoughts to another person (who is block quoted) who seems to wonder the same things as a lot of commenters here...
    - entropyie 5y ago
      I would have synthesised a brief approximation of the real reason. Transport being one real possibility. The point is that this is a two way transaction with a real person, who has their own hidden state, goals and limits that are not always apparent to a consumer. E.g. company policy on deducing what the customer really needs. How was the employee to know Dan was the one person who actually knew what they needed, out of 100 over confident buffoon's that came to the shop that week. This is why I don't hassle the support person fixing my internet when they run through support script. I don't say "skip this, I have an honours degree blah blah", cause they have enough constraints to deal with as is... And once in a 100 times, I will learn something I didn't know...
      - threatofrain 5y ago
        IMO, falsehoods do not constitute dishonesty anymore than truths constitute honesty. Honesty is about the sharing of clarity, and sometimes teachers Lie To Children¹ and other times people confuse or obscure with facts. What matters is a sensitive understanding of what clarity means to others. Anyways, if you tell a store person "oh, I'm getting this for my husband" when it's a gift for yourself, that's more honesty than dishonesty, because to the store person, "clarity" with a customer is very goal oriented. Dan Luu wasn't trying to screw with the store person, and in the end they all got what they wanted, even if Dan Luu walked away "looking stupid". [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children
- verve_rat 5y ago
  I disagree. He might not be morally obligated, but his is certainly socially obligated. Customers ask for the wrong thing all the time. A problem solver, as any good retail sales person should be, will ask questions to help the customer understand their own needs and the available solutions. That story just shows that Dan Luu doesn't understand the social process that happens in the retail environment. That he doesn't care if he looks stupid is besides the point here. He looked stupid to the retail worker not because he didn't explain his underlying reasons for wanting a small box. He looked stupid because he didn't understand the retail sales process. That is to say, he was stupid, about that one thing, and that is why he looked stupid.
gizmo 5y ago
But why can't you just ask for what you want without people automatically assuming you're stupid? If you care that strangers think you're dumb you have to adjust your behavior a lot and some people would rather just be genuine. Besides, the easiest way to not look stupid is to make up a reason that sounds reasonable (i.e. lying) to get what you want. This is what many (most?) people do. If they want the Apple computer that comes in the smallest package they'll make up a BS reason (i.e. flight luggage restrictions) in order to seem reasonable to the stranger who works at Apple. The question is really what kind of person do you want to be? Do you want a person who habitually lies about unimportant stuff in order to accomplish goals? Do you want to be a person who is genuine but gets unfairly judged by strangers? Or do you want to be a person who justifies themselves to strangers in order to avoid getting judged? If you think lying is wrong and seeking the approval of strangers is a bad habit only one option remains.
- tester34 5y ago
  >But why can't you just ask for what you want without people automatically assuming you're stupid? I guess the reality is that huge majority of customers in those shops aren't proficient at technology at all, so it's incredibly good bet that customer has no idea what s/he's doing.
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  The writer conflates "the person at the Apple Store was trying to be helpful" with "the person at the Apple Store thought I was stupid". Part of the job of someone working in a customer-facing, sales job is to understand what the customer wants. A sales associate at an Apple Store probably has dozens of interactions every day where they're able to help people understand the products better and enable them to make a more informed decision. That is their job. Saying "I just want the one that's in the smallest box" makes you look like a customer that's in need of guidance and help, and someone who's probably going to have a bad experience with the product if they don't get it. Getting irritated by a response that is trying to help just shows a lack of empathy. People are not robots and there is a really good reason that the "white lie" is a thing.
AshamedCaptain 5y ago
Yeah, the "smallest box" story comes to me very wrong. It basically shows him as really stupid -- as he is simply failing the "describe the goal, not the step" rule in most "how to ask questions" guides -- e.g., http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal . Not only that, but he is also implying that people "who design processors" must also know our way around shopping for computers. This couldn't be farther from the truth. So this story does not come off as an example of "I don't mind being seen as stupid", it comes off as a very strong example of "I'm holier than you"-attitude which is the entire opposite than the article author's is trying to make.
- lukeholder 5y ago
  >So this story does not come off as an example of "I don't mind being seen as stupid", it comes off as a very strong example of "I'm holier than you"-attitude which is the entire opposite than the article author's is trying to make. Exactly my thoughts. Even the way the story is told to the reader with: "which I had a good reason to want at the time", has the same sentiment towards us. "My reasoning is even above explaining to you, my reader."
politelemon 5y ago
It was antagonistic and condescending. But it's being framed in an /r/iamverysmart "ironic" way. Extrapolating from this article, this individual is likely a nightmare to work with due to their closed nature and unwillingness to share thoughts or decision making points.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  I particularly liked the juxtaposition of their behaviour in the Apple situation with their later comment ... > I try to be careful to avoid this failure mode when onboarding interns and junior folks and have generally been sucessful, but it's taken me up to six weeks to convince people that it's ok for them to ask questions I kind of get the impression that asking the author questions is actually a very painful process.
afarrell 5y ago
Because the answer might take 10 minutes to explain.
- mhss 5y ago
  You can always explain in a few words why, even without stating your actual underlying reasons. The clerk doesn't need all the details. This person clearly struggled more than he had to if he would have just provided a reason the clerk could understand. I bet his lack of social skills and perceived "stubbornness" were a much higher contribution factor to the clerk being puzzled and may be even thinking he was being stupid.
- bradlys 5y ago
  Are you really that smart if it takes 10 minutes to justify buying the computer with the smallest box? Probably not.
max_ 5y ago
>why don't you reveal your goals or thought process when challenged after asking a question that might be perceived as stupid? People are shallow and often don't spend a lot of time trying to understand other people. You won't always have the luxury to explain yourself.
- mhss 5y ago
  I truly do not understand this attitude and I can only guess comes from repeated exposure to an unfriendly environment. We're not talking here about exposing your soul to the world, a few words to explain why you want the smaller box would actually save a bunch of time and misunderstandings. Given how society works today, it's just easier.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rd11235 5y ago
Agree. To put it in the context of the article, if the author looked at getting desired outcomes as a video game, then this article is just a rant, and time would have been better spent analyzing the situations for how to improve. The recurring failure mode is ineffective communication.

threatofrain 5y ago

But Dan Luu isn't obviously motivated by a desire to antagonize the Apple employee, and neither is he socially or morally obligated in the slightest to explain his consumer intentions during a purchase at the Apple store. And was the encounter really antagonistic? Dan Luu is the one who left looking stupid.

entropyie 5y ago
Consider that the shop is unlikely to have the laptops stored or annotated by box size. Dan was asking the employee to expend considerable additional effort to find the smallest laptop box when he potentially knew the model number, or least had a reason that would justify the extra work. I would have just said "I'm really tight on carry-on space", not to avoid looking stupid, but to assure the employee I wasn't breaking their balls for no reason.
- genewitch 5y ago
  So you'd lie to the employee? He touches on this later in the article after comparing thoughts to another person (who is block quoted) who seems to wonder the same things as a lot of commenters here...
  - entropyie 5y ago
    I would have synthesised a brief approximation of the real reason. Transport being one real possibility. The point is that this is a two way transaction with a real person, who has their own hidden state, goals and limits that are not always apparent to a consumer. E.g. company policy on deducing what the customer really needs. How was the employee to know Dan was the one person who actually knew what they needed, out of 100 over confident buffoon's that came to the shop that week. This is why I don't hassle the support person fixing my internet when they run through support script. I don't say "skip this, I have an honours degree blah blah", cause they have enough constraints to deal with as is... And once in a 100 times, I will learn something I didn't know...
    - threatofrain 5y ago
      IMO, falsehoods do not constitute dishonesty anymore than truths constitute honesty. Honesty is about the sharing of clarity, and sometimes teachers Lie To Children¹ and other times people confuse or obscure with facts. What matters is a sensitive understanding of what clarity means to others. Anyways, if you tell a store person "oh, I'm getting this for my husband" when it's a gift for yourself, that's more honesty than dishonesty, because to the store person, "clarity" with a customer is very goal oriented. Dan Luu wasn't trying to screw with the store person, and in the end they all got what they wanted, even if Dan Luu walked away "looking stupid". [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children
verve_rat 5y ago
I disagree. He might not be morally obligated, but his is certainly socially obligated. Customers ask for the wrong thing all the time. A problem solver, as any good retail sales person should be, will ask questions to help the customer understand their own needs and the available solutions. That story just shows that Dan Luu doesn't understand the social process that happens in the retail environment. That he doesn't care if he looks stupid is besides the point here. He looked stupid to the retail worker not because he didn't explain his underlying reasons for wanting a small box. He looked stupid because he didn't understand the retail sales process. That is to say, he was stupid, about that one thing, and that is why he looked stupid.

gizmo 5y ago

But why can't you just ask for what you want without people automatically assuming you're stupid? If you care that strangers think you're dumb you have to adjust your behavior a lot and some people would rather just be genuine. Besides, the easiest way to not look stupid is to make up a reason that sounds reasonable (i.e. lying) to get what you want. This is what many (most?) people do. If they want the Apple computer that comes in the smallest package they'll make up a BS reason (i.e. flight luggage restrictions) in order to seem reasonable to the stranger who works at Apple. The question is really what kind of person do you want to be? Do you want a person who habitually lies about unimportant stuff in order to accomplish goals? Do you want to be a person who is genuine but gets unfairly judged by strangers? Or do you want to be a person who justifies themselves to strangers in order to avoid getting judged? If you think lying is wrong and seeking the approval of strangers is a bad habit only one option remains.

tester34 5y ago
>But why can't you just ask for what you want without people automatically assuming you're stupid? I guess the reality is that huge majority of customers in those shops aren't proficient at technology at all, so it's incredibly good bet that customer has no idea what s/he's doing.
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
The writer conflates "the person at the Apple Store was trying to be helpful" with "the person at the Apple Store thought I was stupid". Part of the job of someone working in a customer-facing, sales job is to understand what the customer wants. A sales associate at an Apple Store probably has dozens of interactions every day where they're able to help people understand the products better and enable them to make a more informed decision. That is their job. Saying "I just want the one that's in the smallest box" makes you look like a customer that's in need of guidance and help, and someone who's probably going to have a bad experience with the product if they don't get it. Getting irritated by a response that is trying to help just shows a lack of empathy. People are not robots and there is a really good reason that the "white lie" is a thing.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago

Yeah, the "smallest box" story comes to me very wrong. It basically shows him as really stupid -- as he is simply failing the "describe the goal, not the step" rule in most "how to ask questions" guides -- e.g., http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal . Not only that, but he is also implying that people "who design processors" must also know our way around shopping for computers. This couldn't be farther from the truth. So this story does not come off as an example of "I don't mind being seen as stupid", it comes off as a very strong example of "I'm holier than you"-attitude which is the entire opposite than the article author's is trying to make.

lukeholder 5y ago
>So this story does not come off as an example of "I don't mind being seen as stupid", it comes off as a very strong example of "I'm holier than you"-attitude which is the entire opposite than the article author's is trying to make. Exactly my thoughts. Even the way the story is told to the reader with: "which I had a good reason to want at the time", has the same sentiment towards us. "My reasoning is even above explaining to you, my reader."

politelemon 5y ago

It was antagonistic and condescending. But it's being framed in an /r/iamverysmart "ironic" way. Extrapolating from this article, this individual is likely a nightmare to work with due to their closed nature and unwillingness to share thoughts or decision making points.

Ensorceled 5y ago
I particularly liked the juxtaposition of their behaviour in the Apple situation with their later comment ... > I try to be careful to avoid this failure mode when onboarding interns and junior folks and have generally been sucessful, but it's taken me up to six weeks to convince people that it's ok for them to ask questions I kind of get the impression that asking the author questions is actually a very painful process.

afarrell 5y ago

Because the answer might take 10 minutes to explain.

mhss 5y ago
You can always explain in a few words why, even without stating your actual underlying reasons. The clerk doesn't need all the details. This person clearly struggled more than he had to if he would have just provided a reason the clerk could understand. I bet his lack of social skills and perceived "stubbornness" were a much higher contribution factor to the clerk being puzzled and may be even thinking he was being stupid.
bradlys 5y ago
Are you really that smart if it takes 10 minutes to justify buying the computer with the smallest box? Probably not.

max_ 5y ago

>why don't you reveal your goals or thought process when challenged after asking a question that might be perceived as stupid? People are shallow and often don't spend a lot of time trying to understand other people. You won't always have the luxury to explain yourself.

mhss 5y ago
I truly do not understand this attitude and I can only guess comes from repeated exposure to an unfriendly environment. We're not talking here about exposing your soul to the world, a few words to explain why you want the smaller box would actually save a bunch of time and misunderstandings. Given how society works today, it's just easier.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rd11235 5y ago

Agree. To put it in the context of the article, if the author looked at getting desired outcomes as a video game, then this article is just a rant, and time would have been better spent analyzing the situations for how to improve. The recurring failure mode is ineffective communication.