5 ms·

My comment about recycling needs more nuance. Of course recycling as a mechanism is part of a sustainable economy. But much better to recycle a material is to r

by Lutger 5y ago

My comment about recycling needs more nuance. Of course recycling as a mechanism is part of a sustainable economy. But much better to recycle a material is to reuse a product, and even better is for the thing to not have been produced in the first place. Recycling plastic for example is very limited. It's very hard to get everybody to perfectly recycle, then we can still only recycle a limited amount of plastic a limited number of times. Clearly, recycling plastic isn't green. It's only ever so slightly less harmful. We have been recycling plastic for a long time and we are still choking in it's waste. I still recycle myself though, even as I'm trying to reduce my consumption of (single-use) plastics, which isn't easy at all. But I also support a ban on as much plastic products as possible, since recycling is a non-solution and the problem unacceptable. I think such bans are gaining public support, at least in Europe. Just like the public is starting to become aware that individual action on reducing footprint isn't enough and even distracts from holding the right actors accountable. Landmark cases here in the Netherlands such as the Urgenda case and the case against Shell help spread that awareness.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
I urge you to examine where you got the idea that recycling plastic is such a bad idea. "Biomass is so bad it's worse than coal" "EVs are so bad you're better of with an ICE" "Recycling is so bad you're better off not bothering" Notice a pattern there? Attacking alternatives that are better, but not perfect (nothing is) is an obvious tactic to fall back on once the more blatant denial starts to falter. Meanwhile, if you looked up a study about recycling, including specifically plastic, you'd see the consensus is that it saves energy, and carbon and money. There's definitely nuance but plastic is unavoidable in modern society. No one is going to ban it entirely, even if they do ban most disposable uses. And if they don't ban it, then the people who create products with it should be forced to pay for the recycling and someone should check it actually happens. There is no downside to this. The extra cost being borne by the producer even makes it less attractive to people who only care about money. Ignoring that easily achievable collective goal in favour of an impractical personal achievement of avoiding plastic is exactly the kind of thing people seem to be waking up to these days. Reduce reuse and recycle. Yes they all matter, but not bothering to recycle the stuff you don't reduce or reuse is obviously only beneficial to the people who sell the fossil based input materials.
- Lutger 5y ago
  You are pulling a straw man I've even been careful to avoid since I noticed it: > you're better off not bothering" Nowhere in my comments did I say that it's better to not recycle. I've even made the same argument as you did regarding EV elsewhere, debunking the idea that because EV isn't perfect, it's not worth the effort. I've said "I still recycle myself" and "Of course recycling as a mechanism is part of a sustainable economy". I do not have, expressed or implied, anything like that recycling plastic is a bad idea. I don't know how to make that point clearer. My point however, is that it isn't a solution and convincing the public that it is, was a deceptive corporate propaganda campaign by the leading beverage and packaging corporations, designed to avoid taking responsibility and more drastic actions.[1] It's painful, but the green movement must recognize it has been misled and that recycling is really not enough, not by a long shot. > plastic is unavoidable in modern society This doesn't mean we can't significantly reduce our consumption of single use plastic and avoid a substantial amount of plastic usage, which is only increasing. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-indian-crying-environment-ads-pollution-1123-20171113-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec...
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    I know you understood this for EVs and renewables, that's why I pointed out that I think you have fallen for it when it comes to recyling plastic. You said this: > Clearly, recycling plastic isn't green. It's only ever so slightly less harmful. You didn't need to emphasise how little you think recycling helps. I take it to mean "it's better to just not use plastic" and agree but as I said, on a society wide scale that is simply not happening so advertising that attitude to other people, who certainly will not stop using plastic, spreads the meme that recycling is basically useless and that is a bad strategy. Which coincidentally is the same message that fossil fuel providers push. Collectively we need to use less and recycle the stuff we do use efficiently. As I said, there's no downsides to this, nor any conflict between those two things any more than saying we should use both wind and solar. You don't use solar when wind makes more sense nor vice versa. But if you personally decide to install solar panels because that works well for you, it's not helpful to say "wind is not green, just ever so slightly less harmful". We need both, both are better than the status quo.

by Lutger 5y ago

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

I urge you to examine where you got the idea that recycling plastic is such a bad idea. "Biomass is so bad it's worse than coal" "EVs are so bad you're better of with an ICE" "Recycling is so bad you're better off not bothering" Notice a pattern there? Attacking alternatives that are better, but not perfect (nothing is) is an obvious tactic to fall back on once the more blatant denial starts to falter. Meanwhile, if you looked up a study about recycling, including specifically plastic, you'd see the consensus is that it saves energy, and carbon and money. There's definitely nuance but plastic is unavoidable in modern society. No one is going to ban it entirely, even if they do ban most disposable uses. And if they don't ban it, then the people who create products with it should be forced to pay for the recycling and someone should check it actually happens. There is no downside to this. The extra cost being borne by the producer even makes it less attractive to people who only care about money. Ignoring that easily achievable collective goal in favour of an impractical personal achievement of avoiding plastic is exactly the kind of thing people seem to be waking up to these days. Reduce reuse and recycle. Yes they all matter, but not bothering to recycle the stuff you don't reduce or reuse is obviously only beneficial to the people who sell the fossil based input materials.

Lutger 5y ago
You are pulling a straw man I've even been careful to avoid since I noticed it: > you're better off not bothering" Nowhere in my comments did I say that it's better to not recycle. I've even made the same argument as you did regarding EV elsewhere, debunking the idea that because EV isn't perfect, it's not worth the effort. I've said "I still recycle myself" and "Of course recycling as a mechanism is part of a sustainable economy". I do not have, expressed or implied, anything like that recycling plastic is a bad idea. I don't know how to make that point clearer. My point however, is that it isn't a solution and convincing the public that it is, was a deceptive corporate propaganda campaign by the leading beverage and packaging corporations, designed to avoid taking responsibility and more drastic actions.[1] It's painful, but the green movement must recognize it has been misled and that recycling is really not enough, not by a long shot. > plastic is unavoidable in modern society This doesn't mean we can't significantly reduce our consumption of single use plastic and avoid a substantial amount of plastic usage, which is only increasing. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-indian-crying-environment-ads-pollution-1123-20171113-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec...
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  I know you understood this for EVs and renewables, that's why I pointed out that I think you have fallen for it when it comes to recyling plastic. You said this: > Clearly, recycling plastic isn't green. It's only ever so slightly less harmful. You didn't need to emphasise how little you think recycling helps. I take it to mean "it's better to just not use plastic" and agree but as I said, on a society wide scale that is simply not happening so advertising that attitude to other people, who certainly will not stop using plastic, spreads the meme that recycling is basically useless and that is a bad strategy. Which coincidentally is the same message that fossil fuel providers push. Collectively we need to use less and recycle the stuff we do use efficiently. As I said, there's no downsides to this, nor any conflict between those two things any more than saying we should use both wind and solar. You don't use solar when wind makes more sense nor vice versa. But if you personally decide to install solar panels because that works well for you, it's not helpful to say "wind is not green, just ever so slightly less harmful". We need both, both are better than the status quo.