4 ms·

> we will have normal social structures again. What do you consider "normal"?

dustintrex 5y ago
Monogamous marriage between a man and a woman is historically far and away most common social structure around the world, although obviously there is a vast amount of variety.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  Okay, but we still have monogamous long-term relationships between straight men and women as the norm, in terms of what is most common. Those haven't gone away. We've just become more accepting of people who don't fit the standard mold. So it sounds like anyone clamoring for a return to historical norms is actually clamoring for a return to bigotry: returning to treating gay people like garbage, for example, and denying their relationships legal rights.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    > returning to treating gay people like garbage, for example, and denying their relationships legal rights. A lot of what gay people claim is treating them 'like garbage' is just the natural limitation of a homosexual relationship. For example, not being able to rent a womb is not being treated like garbage. No one has been allowed to do that for most of history, and most straight people can't do that. Not being allowed to rent wombs is just not being allowed to being what amounts to a slaveholder.
- readthenotes1 5y ago
  Monogamous for whom? Muslims hardly revere monogamy, though they draw the line at tetragamy for most.
  - dustintrex 5y ago
    While Islam permits up to four wives, the vast majority of Muslim men have only one.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    For the vast majority of history, the vast majority of muslim men have only had at most one wife.
- bawolff 5y ago
  I'm doubtful of that. Homosexuality was very normalized in the ancient western world, but it looked very different then modern conceptions. How many people do you know recently that used marriage to secure an economic/political alliance? Pretty common among elites historically, almost unheard of today.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    > I'm doubtful of that. Homosexuality was very normalized in the ancient western world, but it looked very different then modern conceptions. Indeed... most of what modern day LGBTQ+ activists conceive of as homosexuality in the ancient world is just close male friendship. Half the things people claim were instances of 'homosexuality' in ancient literature are just men fooling around. There are very few instances of men (or women) actually forming stable social structures with commitment in the absence of marriage to the opposite sex. Ultimately, our confusion in this regard is due to the fact that so few men have actual friends. I sometimes go out 1-on-1 with my male friends to restaurants (often fancy ones). It's a guys night. We're all married with kids. And yet, oftentimes, people will think we're dating or something. It's weird. FFS, I went with my father to a nice restaurant, and they thought we were married. Something has gone very wrong with how we conceive of men being friends, which makes sense, because so few men have any (which probably explains the rise of homosexuality as well).

Monogamous marriage between a man and a woman is historically far and away most common social structure around the world, although obviously there is a vast amount of variety.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
Okay, but we still have monogamous long-term relationships between straight men and women as the norm, in terms of what is most common. Those haven't gone away. We've just become more accepting of people who don't fit the standard mold. So it sounds like anyone clamoring for a return to historical norms is actually clamoring for a return to bigotry: returning to treating gay people like garbage, for example, and denying their relationships legal rights.
- iammisc 5y ago
  > returning to treating gay people like garbage, for example, and denying their relationships legal rights. A lot of what gay people claim is treating them 'like garbage' is just the natural limitation of a homosexual relationship. For example, not being able to rent a womb is not being treated like garbage. No one has been allowed to do that for most of history, and most straight people can't do that. Not being allowed to rent wombs is just not being allowed to being what amounts to a slaveholder.
readthenotes1 5y ago
Monogamous for whom? Muslims hardly revere monogamy, though they draw the line at tetragamy for most.
- dustintrex 5y ago
  While Islam permits up to four wives, the vast majority of Muslim men have only one.
- iammisc 5y ago
  For the vast majority of history, the vast majority of muslim men have only had at most one wife.
bawolff 5y ago
I'm doubtful of that. Homosexuality was very normalized in the ancient western world, but it looked very different then modern conceptions. How many people do you know recently that used marriage to secure an economic/political alliance? Pretty common among elites historically, almost unheard of today.
- iammisc 5y ago
  > I'm doubtful of that. Homosexuality was very normalized in the ancient western world, but it looked very different then modern conceptions. Indeed... most of what modern day LGBTQ+ activists conceive of as homosexuality in the ancient world is just close male friendship. Half the things people claim were instances of 'homosexuality' in ancient literature are just men fooling around. There are very few instances of men (or women) actually forming stable social structures with commitment in the absence of marriage to the opposite sex. Ultimately, our confusion in this regard is due to the fact that so few men have actual friends. I sometimes go out 1-on-1 with my male friends to restaurants (often fancy ones). It's a guys night. We're all married with kids. And yet, oftentimes, people will think we're dating or something. It's weird. FFS, I went with my father to a nice restaurant, and they thought we were married. Something has gone very wrong with how we conceive of men being friends, which makes sense, because so few men have any (which probably explains the rise of homosexuality as well).