4 ms·

Intel tried to ”design down” their uArch. Also, there is a TON of pro Mac users. If we define ’pro’ as getting paid for work done on Macs.. Not to mention M1

Intel tried to ”design down” their uArch. Also, there is a TON of pro Mac users. If we define ’pro’ as getting paid for work done on Macs.. Not to mention M1 emulates x86 pretty darn well..

soylentnewsorg 5y ago
I do get it - you define pro as a guy at work running his backup application in a web browser, and the hipster at starbucks doing "graphic design." I define pro as "a workstation." The m1 does not emulate x86. You literally don't know what you're talking about. Which explains why you define a kid's toy as "pro." I get it - you're getting paid. So is the barista at the starbucks you work from. Kia might define their kia optima as a racing car too, because it's got some horsepower. Except we're at an indy500.
- tarsinge 5y ago
  Just say it: using a laptop on battery power is for hipsters.
  - boopmaster 5y ago
    Right? I’m curious what pro’s do “at the indy 500”. Most devs where I work use 15” macs and probably a blend of apps from jetbrains toolbox. Mostly connected to power outlets to be fair. So we’re talking local installs of spring boot app Java servers, front end Webserver, an IDE to work on one of those, because opening a second one on a Intel mac will either run the dev out of RAM or the heat will cause a shutdown. The thing is, the corporate DELL windows machines available were largely unsuitable to dev work due to the trashy interfaces (low resolution screens, bad trackpads, battery life so bad you can’t make it through a 2 hour meeting undocked). The Windows laptops available really failed hard when they needed to be laptops.
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      It's fine to work sometime on battery. Except, after 5 hours, marginal utility decreases, and 8 hours it goes to zero. Why would I need more than one day?
      - soylentnewsorg 5y ago
        because you're a "dev" who makes web pages for a company that can't afford an oracle license. and your office is a starbucks. but you want to call your little toy a pro, because to non-programmers, you make missle guidance systems. well not you. but the other few people on this thread.
  - soylentnewsorg 5y ago
    Yes, using a laptop for over 10 hours on battery is not for people who do any serious work needing a pro laptop - what is in the professional circle called a workstation. Glad you understand. Note apple's stated hours: 11 hours while browsing the internet, and 17 hours for watching videos. If this is your use case, you are not the target market for a workstation. Apple sells "pro" laptops like Kia sells racing cars.
- true_religion 5y ago
  Hipster graphic designers make upwards of 150,000 a year in my area. The professional in pro, never actually meant “software engineer”. It meant anyone who can hang up their signboard and work on their own: lawyers, doctors, architects, and yes… graphic designers. Personally, I think software engineers don’t need fast laptops either. We need mainframes and fast local networks. Nothing beats compiling at the speed of 192 cores at once. Which reminds me, laptops and render farms is exactly the technique those hipster graphic designers you talked about are using so they aren’t missing out on any power.
  - soylentnewsorg 5y ago
    > 150,000 a year in my area. which is the top of their salary ceiling, and it's not a high number, like at all. the top number for software devs is about 700k. In my field, people make 200k+. But we're not talking about "pro" people. We're talking about a "pro" laptop. It's the best thing that apple makes - that doesn't make it "pro." It's got the performance of the midrange systems from everyone else. >I think software engineers don’t need fast laptops either. yeah, when I run a script to read a few gig of performance data and do a bunch of calculations on it, I need a fast laptop. Until that's done, I'm sitting there, CPU maxed out, not able to do anything else. With an M1, I have to arrange my schedule to process the dataset overnight. With a Dell I run it over lunch. Case closed. >We need mainframes and fast local networks. Nothing beats compiling at the speed of 192 cores at once. I'm not a software engineer anymore. When I was, no, I did not usually compile on the server. I compiled on my workstation. Because you're not on a fast local network. You're at an airport for 4 hours, or on a plane for 5 hours, or on a comcast connection at your house.
- falkaer 5y ago
  The M1 (laptops) do emulate x86, and the M1 (chip) has a few x86 specific instructions to improve emulation performance
  - soylentnewsorg 5y ago
    I love how you added "laptop" to make your statement... still false. There is a program running on macos that literally recompiles x86 binaries to arm, then the m1 executes the arm code. the m1 does not execute x86 binaries. period. it only runs arm binaries.
    - ksml 5y ago
      No, parent comment isn't false, even if the wording could be more precise. It is true that M1 CPUs do not execute x86 instructions, but the machines do, in effect, execute x86 binaries. Also, M1 does have added instructions for TSO to improve performance of translated code.
- zimpenfish 5y ago
  > The m1 does not emulate x86. You literally don't know what you're talking about. What is it doing when it runs x86_64 binaries then?
  - jimsmart 5y ago
    Rosetta 2 kicks in, performs a JIT/AOT translation of the x86 instructions to ARM instructions, executes those, and caches the resulting ARM binary for later use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)
  - soylentnewsorg 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - ksml 5y ago
      Please stop being so hostile to other users. It really doesn't add anything. You have made some factually questionable comments yourself, and I say this as someone who has worked on JIT aarch64 translation very similar to Rosetta 2.
      - soylentnewsorg 5y ago
        [flagged]

Intel tried to ”design down” their uArch. Also, there is a TON of pro Mac users. If we define ’pro’ as getting paid for work done on Macs.. Not to mention M1 emulates x86 pretty darn well..

soylentnewsorg 5y ago

I do get it - you define pro as a guy at work running his backup application in a web browser, and the hipster at starbucks doing "graphic design." I define pro as "a workstation." The m1 does not emulate x86. You literally don't know what you're talking about. Which explains why you define a kid's toy as "pro." I get it - you're getting paid. So is the barista at the starbucks you work from. Kia might define their kia optima as a racing car too, because it's got some horsepower. Except we're at an indy500.

tarsinge 5y ago
Just say it: using a laptop on battery power is for hipsters.
- boopmaster 5y ago
  Right? I’m curious what pro’s do “at the indy 500”. Most devs where I work use 15” macs and probably a blend of apps from jetbrains toolbox. Mostly connected to power outlets to be fair. So we’re talking local installs of spring boot app Java servers, front end Webserver, an IDE to work on one of those, because opening a second one on a Intel mac will either run the dev out of RAM or the heat will cause a shutdown. The thing is, the corporate DELL windows machines available were largely unsuitable to dev work due to the trashy interfaces (low resolution screens, bad trackpads, battery life so bad you can’t make it through a 2 hour meeting undocked). The Windows laptops available really failed hard when they needed to be laptops.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    It's fine to work sometime on battery. Except, after 5 hours, marginal utility decreases, and 8 hours it goes to zero. Why would I need more than one day?
    - soylentnewsorg 5y ago
      because you're a "dev" who makes web pages for a company that can't afford an oracle license. and your office is a starbucks. but you want to call your little toy a pro, because to non-programmers, you make missle guidance systems. well not you. but the other few people on this thread.
- soylentnewsorg 5y ago
  Yes, using a laptop for over 10 hours on battery is not for people who do any serious work needing a pro laptop - what is in the professional circle called a workstation. Glad you understand. Note apple's stated hours: 11 hours while browsing the internet, and 17 hours for watching videos. If this is your use case, you are not the target market for a workstation. Apple sells "pro" laptops like Kia sells racing cars.
true_religion 5y ago
Hipster graphic designers make upwards of 150,000 a year in my area. The professional in pro, never actually meant “software engineer”. It meant anyone who can hang up their signboard and work on their own: lawyers, doctors, architects, and yes… graphic designers. Personally, I think software engineers don’t need fast laptops either. We need mainframes and fast local networks. Nothing beats compiling at the speed of 192 cores at once. Which reminds me, laptops and render farms is exactly the technique those hipster graphic designers you talked about are using so they aren’t missing out on any power.
- soylentnewsorg 5y ago
  > 150,000 a year in my area. which is the top of their salary ceiling, and it's not a high number, like at all. the top number for software devs is about 700k. In my field, people make 200k+. But we're not talking about "pro" people. We're talking about a "pro" laptop. It's the best thing that apple makes - that doesn't make it "pro." It's got the performance of the midrange systems from everyone else. >I think software engineers don’t need fast laptops either. yeah, when I run a script to read a few gig of performance data and do a bunch of calculations on it, I need a fast laptop. Until that's done, I'm sitting there, CPU maxed out, not able to do anything else. With an M1, I have to arrange my schedule to process the dataset overnight. With a Dell I run it over lunch. Case closed. >We need mainframes and fast local networks. Nothing beats compiling at the speed of 192 cores at once. I'm not a software engineer anymore. When I was, no, I did not usually compile on the server. I compiled on my workstation. Because you're not on a fast local network. You're at an airport for 4 hours, or on a plane for 5 hours, or on a comcast connection at your house.
falkaer 5y ago
The M1 (laptops) do emulate x86, and the M1 (chip) has a few x86 specific instructions to improve emulation performance
- soylentnewsorg 5y ago
  I love how you added "laptop" to make your statement... still false. There is a program running on macos that literally recompiles x86 binaries to arm, then the m1 executes the arm code. the m1 does not execute x86 binaries. period. it only runs arm binaries.
  - ksml 5y ago
    No, parent comment isn't false, even if the wording could be more precise. It is true that M1 CPUs do not execute x86 instructions, but the machines do, in effect, execute x86 binaries. Also, M1 does have added instructions for TSO to improve performance of translated code.
zimpenfish 5y ago
> The m1 does not emulate x86. You literally don't know what you're talking about. What is it doing when it runs x86_64 binaries then?
- jimsmart 5y ago
  Rosetta 2 kicks in, performs a JIT/AOT translation of the x86 instructions to ARM instructions, executes those, and caches the resulting ARM binary for later use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)
- soylentnewsorg 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - ksml 5y ago
    Please stop being so hostile to other users. It really doesn't add anything. You have made some factually questionable comments yourself, and I say this as someone who has worked on JIT aarch64 translation very similar to Rosetta 2.
    - soylentnewsorg 5y ago
      [flagged]