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I may be romanticizing it as a mere occasional visitor, but my impression of Tokyo is as a place which has managed to manage a balance of (incredible) density w

I may be romanticizing it as a mere occasional visitor, but my impression of Tokyo is as a place which has managed to manage a balance of (incredible) density with livable neighborhoods. Lots of public transit, commercial districts, residential zones with small shops and groceries. Very walkable, bikeable, and even driveable if that's what you need. But within the city you seldom need to drive. I grew up in LA suburbs. We had to drive to do anything: shop, go to the movies, visit friends. When I finally moved out of the home I grew up in, I moved to Hollywood, the neighborhood, which is very walkable and has lots of good public transit. Later I moved to San Francisco, and at this juncture I'm in a neighborhood in Oakland built up mostly in the 1910s-1930s. Not nearly as walk friendly as my old SF and LA neighborhoods, but there are still good groceries, restaurants, and bars within a 5-15 minute walk. And it's an aesthetically beautiful mix of victorian, craftsman, and spanish-style architecture for the most part, in gently rolling hills surrounding a beautiful tidal estuary which reflects the downtown high-rises. When I visit my family in the suburbs, it feels really weird and isolating.

0x0nyandesu 5y ago
The thing with Tokyo is that the cops do their jobs. A homeless person asking for money on a Tokyo subway is unheard of. I'd love something like Tokyo in the USA but it will never work because crime on American public transport is rampant. Hell just last week a women was raped on a Philly subway and no one did a thing. Adult hood in America is coming to terms with the fact that I'll never live to see this cleaned up version of the USA everyone is dreaming about so instead I'm scooping my single family home and getting the hell out of dodge.
- ninjin 5y ago
  I am not an expert on the subject, but I do not think that the explanation for most of what you see in Japan is explained by “good policing”. There was an excellent article on policing in Japan a few years back that I sadly can not remember the outlet of, but I very much remember a sentence that resonated with my experience in Japan which was along the lines of: “It is not because of the quality of its policing, but rather despite its quality of policing that Japan’s low level of crime is notable”. Do not get me wrong here, I do think the many police boxes and the fact that you can greet and recognise the face of your local officers on your way home after work at night helps to form a sense of community. But my suspicion is that the truth lies more in the fact that Japan has a culture where people “police” themselves to an almost ridiculous degree in terms of all forms of behaviour. There are of course massive downsides to this kind of social pressure (especially on the level of individuals), but that would be a subject deserving an article in its own right.
  - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
    It's a combination of cleanliness, social responsibility, and police presence true but I've also heard what happens when there is a disturbance and it's dealt with quickly either by police or conductors. Someone begging on the train is not tolerated at all. Japanese culture views that as an unacceptable imposition by that individual on the other riders. Western culture tends to shame you in the other direction which is its own whole set of insanity.
    - ninjin 5y ago
      Maybe we are talking past each other, but I am not so sure you “see” the causation the way it probably is (I am reluctant to call myself an authority even after nearly a decade living in Japan, so take my perspectives with a grain of salt). “Western” societies apply corrections the way you seem to ascribe them to Japan: A strong arm and stern reminder. In Japan, it is instead “soft” and more akin to the stern look your mother gave you back in the day. Begging is not something that happens, not because it is immediately clamped down upon, but because it does not happen in the first place because of “collective social restraint”. In another comment you wrote: “I don't even want to know my neighbors exist”. Since Japan is a more collectivist society, you will be acutely aware that your neighbours exist at all times. Heck, not only your neighbours, but every individual around you at work, in public, etc. and constantly be reminded by your fellow Japanese that you better “behave” and conform according to the perceived norms or get glared at disapprovingly or – worse – even ostracised. At least to my eyes, this is where you find the source of the societal phenomena you seek – not the police or another central authority.
      - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
        I spent a month in Japan. Most Japanese people live closer to how Americans live. Low density suburbs and very low density cities. Even in Tokyo you can purchase a small single family home in the suburbs with a driveway for what would be considered a very cheap price by American standards. You would take a 30-45 minute train into Tokyo. They also sound proof the nice condos in downtown really well and you can afford a fairly large two bedroom for around $1500 USD per month. They are also more creative with the dense city space and parking and allow parking on the sidewalk in designated spaces. One thing that struck me walking around Osaka was a 7-11 that had parking like an American style one would with parking in front. Driving into Kagoshima (bullet train was out due to landslide so we drove down) you're gonna see basically single family style dwellings all the way down hill into the city where it gets instantly dense but for only about 15 city blocks. Was dead AF at night. In a city like that you can own a car no problem and commute in. And that's how most Japanese live. Don't get it twisted. Japanese folks enjoy privacy as much as anyone else. Tokyo is the exception, not the rule. And even in Tokyo they will go to retreats out in the mountains regularly. Tokyo is a great model for proper zoning in high density urban areas to prevent high costs but it's not how you live everywhere
- helen___keller 5y ago
  > it will never work because crime on American public transport is rampant. Are you sure? I’ve never had that impression across years of transit, bus and rail, in Pittsburgh and Boston. I think the biggest barrier is a chicken and egg problem: it’s hard to motivate transit expansion without dense housing and it’s hard to motivate denser housing except along existing transit corridors
  - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
    Lol the amount of times I've seen a tweaker snoozing on my septa ride to work or some idiot going "hey I'm sorry to bother you folks but [insert fake sob story]". No thanks. Plus have you noticed there's a pandemic? The last thing I need is to be in a tube with strangers. Do you realize how miserable subway stations in east coast cities can get when the AC is broken? If they even have AC? The whole system would need to be rebuilt for me to even consider going back to that. Most riders before covid were office commuters. Now with remote work what reason is there for it to be there? Oh right for the guy asking for hand outs to ride it all the way up and down the line all day while no one does anything about it. Trust me it's not an issue of denser housing. I do not want denser housing. I don't even want to know my neighbors exist. Seriously. I lived in a dense city for a long time. It sucked.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
      Did you tell the bother brother to fuck off?
      - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
        Not worth it. They can be violent and it happens daily. It's not my job.
        LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        Thought so...
    - 5y ago
- fgnbdfgx 5y ago
  >last week a women was raped on a Philly subway and no one did a thing Technically, according to what I've read, they did do something. They recorded it.
  - Smoosh 5y ago
    Gotta keep those crime stats high to increase the police budget!

0x0nyandesu 5y ago

The thing with Tokyo is that the cops do their jobs. A homeless person asking for money on a Tokyo subway is unheard of. I'd love something like Tokyo in the USA but it will never work because crime on American public transport is rampant. Hell just last week a women was raped on a Philly subway and no one did a thing. Adult hood in America is coming to terms with the fact that I'll never live to see this cleaned up version of the USA everyone is dreaming about so instead I'm scooping my single family home and getting the hell out of dodge.

ninjin 5y ago
I am not an expert on the subject, but I do not think that the explanation for most of what you see in Japan is explained by “good policing”. There was an excellent article on policing in Japan a few years back that I sadly can not remember the outlet of, but I very much remember a sentence that resonated with my experience in Japan which was along the lines of: “It is not because of the quality of its policing, but rather despite its quality of policing that Japan’s low level of crime is notable”. Do not get me wrong here, I do think the many police boxes and the fact that you can greet and recognise the face of your local officers on your way home after work at night helps to form a sense of community. But my suspicion is that the truth lies more in the fact that Japan has a culture where people “police” themselves to an almost ridiculous degree in terms of all forms of behaviour. There are of course massive downsides to this kind of social pressure (especially on the level of individuals), but that would be a subject deserving an article in its own right.
- 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
  It's a combination of cleanliness, social responsibility, and police presence true but I've also heard what happens when there is a disturbance and it's dealt with quickly either by police or conductors. Someone begging on the train is not tolerated at all. Japanese culture views that as an unacceptable imposition by that individual on the other riders. Western culture tends to shame you in the other direction which is its own whole set of insanity.
  - ninjin 5y ago
    Maybe we are talking past each other, but I am not so sure you “see” the causation the way it probably is (I am reluctant to call myself an authority even after nearly a decade living in Japan, so take my perspectives with a grain of salt). “Western” societies apply corrections the way you seem to ascribe them to Japan: A strong arm and stern reminder. In Japan, it is instead “soft” and more akin to the stern look your mother gave you back in the day. Begging is not something that happens, not because it is immediately clamped down upon, but because it does not happen in the first place because of “collective social restraint”. In another comment you wrote: “I don't even want to know my neighbors exist”. Since Japan is a more collectivist society, you will be acutely aware that your neighbours exist at all times. Heck, not only your neighbours, but every individual around you at work, in public, etc. and constantly be reminded by your fellow Japanese that you better “behave” and conform according to the perceived norms or get glared at disapprovingly or – worse – even ostracised. At least to my eyes, this is where you find the source of the societal phenomena you seek – not the police or another central authority.
    - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
      I spent a month in Japan. Most Japanese people live closer to how Americans live. Low density suburbs and very low density cities. Even in Tokyo you can purchase a small single family home in the suburbs with a driveway for what would be considered a very cheap price by American standards. You would take a 30-45 minute train into Tokyo. They also sound proof the nice condos in downtown really well and you can afford a fairly large two bedroom for around $1500 USD per month. They are also more creative with the dense city space and parking and allow parking on the sidewalk in designated spaces. One thing that struck me walking around Osaka was a 7-11 that had parking like an American style one would with parking in front. Driving into Kagoshima (bullet train was out due to landslide so we drove down) you're gonna see basically single family style dwellings all the way down hill into the city where it gets instantly dense but for only about 15 city blocks. Was dead AF at night. In a city like that you can own a car no problem and commute in. And that's how most Japanese live. Don't get it twisted. Japanese folks enjoy privacy as much as anyone else. Tokyo is the exception, not the rule. And even in Tokyo they will go to retreats out in the mountains regularly. Tokyo is a great model for proper zoning in high density urban areas to prevent high costs but it's not how you live everywhere
helen___keller 5y ago
> it will never work because crime on American public transport is rampant. Are you sure? I’ve never had that impression across years of transit, bus and rail, in Pittsburgh and Boston. I think the biggest barrier is a chicken and egg problem: it’s hard to motivate transit expansion without dense housing and it’s hard to motivate denser housing except along existing transit corridors
- 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
  Lol the amount of times I've seen a tweaker snoozing on my septa ride to work or some idiot going "hey I'm sorry to bother you folks but [insert fake sob story]". No thanks. Plus have you noticed there's a pandemic? The last thing I need is to be in a tube with strangers. Do you realize how miserable subway stations in east coast cities can get when the AC is broken? If they even have AC? The whole system would need to be rebuilt for me to even consider going back to that. Most riders before covid were office commuters. Now with remote work what reason is there for it to be there? Oh right for the guy asking for hand outs to ride it all the way up and down the line all day while no one does anything about it. Trust me it's not an issue of denser housing. I do not want denser housing. I don't even want to know my neighbors exist. Seriously. I lived in a dense city for a long time. It sucked.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
    Did you tell the bother brother to fuck off?
    - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
      Not worth it. They can be violent and it happens daily. It's not my job.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        Thought so...
  - 5y ago
fgnbdfgx 5y ago
>last week a women was raped on a Philly subway and no one did a thing Technically, according to what I've read, they did do something. They recorded it.
- Smoosh 5y ago
  Gotta keep those crime stats high to increase the police budget!