6 ms·

Let's hope nobody copies Apple's ridiculous MacBook notch

48 points by FridayoLeary 5y ago

emptyparadise 5y ago
I wish they would mask the notch by making the area with the clock and the menu bar always full OLED black, so that it would be perceived as the menu bar bleeding into the border rather than the border bleeding into the screen.
kwdc 5y ago
As long as the notch is handled by the OS and software I doubt it will be a real issue. I've got a circle in the corner on my moto phone screen for the camera and I literally don't care. That circle buys me extra pixels the height of that camera for the full width of the screen. Doesn't impact movies or anything. Nice. Personally, this is the least of Apple's "problems" if you want to call them that. Having seen how easily serviceable Framework's laptops are, I think Apple need to rethink their designs. While I fully get the whole at-scale limitation that Apple operates in, I no longer see non-removeable batteries or other parts, eg ssd, as a necessary aspect of laptop manufacture. Its now going to be an indicator of just poor design. If Framework can make something that is serviceable then Apple should be able to innovate much better. I don't even think this is actually an engineering decision or problem. Its a business/design one.
- tadfisher 5y ago
  Apple hardware in the early-to-mid-90s was incredible for serviceability. You could replace the CPU on some Powerbooks without tools. Their desktops were even better.
- user_named 5y ago
  Customizability always disappears as a company grows to target the mainstream. There's no (strong) why for user repairs (yet;awaiting legislation) so it's not happening.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
0xdeadb00f 5y ago
Don't get me wrong I think it's silly... But I'd much rather have a notch on my laptop than a notch on my phone.
mehrdada 5y ago
I think the author needs to be reminded that the pixels to the left and right of the notch are basically free bonus pixels. They are not eating into the screen aspect ratio to build the notch. Given that, I prefer the notch to a thicker top bezel, as I will take any free vertical space I can get to basically offset wasted space by macOS menu bar.
wodenokoto 5y ago
I too think Apple did a poor job at introducing their new screen. When showing the screen growing into the sides of the frame, they could have paused and introduced their 16:10 aspect ratio (or whatever it is, below the notch) and then said "but we want that screen realestate to be used by you, and not by the MacOS menu, so we have moved the menu on top of the screen, surrounding the camera"
supermatt 5y ago
> "Apple's hiding the notch in a lot of its promo images on its own website. Not embarrassed, surely?" Actually, they aren't hiding it at all. The app in the picture is in fullscreen mode. They have added additional space on the vertical, and they take it away in fullscreen mode so the notch isnt an obstruction. They literally gave you additional vertical real estate and you complain because theres a notch it invalidates it... Im happy for the extra pixels that are being used by the menu bar, giving me more screen realestate to play with.
blitzar 5y ago
I have just glanced up at the top of my monitor where my logitech webcam sits to realise that is creates a notch in my monitor with its mounting hardware.
goerz 5y ago
I don’t know what the problem is. Seems top notch to me.
footlose_3815 5y ago
stupid notches, stupid phone designers making laptops
asteroidimpact 5y ago
Courage
Waterluvian 5y ago
I’m fascinated by this because it feels like a perception thing. Does the notch remove pixels or are you getting added pixels on both sides? What does the resolution and ratio tell us? If it was just a black bezel all the way across nobody would be commenting. If they make it all black unless an app can utilize it well (ie. playing a video full screen is a rectangle, rather than a rectangle with a notch cut out) I don’t see the issue.
- wil421 5y ago
  It is all back during full screen mode. Another commenter in the huge Apple MBP launch thread from Monday claimed it was extra pixels for the menu bar. Mac Rumors has a short article with screenshots of Xcode in full screen.[1] > According to Apple's marketing material, when macOS apps are in full-screen mode, macOS places an artificial black bezel at the top of the display that essentially hides the notch. When users are not in full-screen macOS apps, the notch remains, and the macOS Menu Bar has been made thicker to accommodate the notch. [1] https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/macos-hides-notch-on-new-macbook-pros/amp/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/macos-hides-notch-on-ne...
  - tfehring 5y ago
    There’s a flag that Mac application developers can set indicating whether their application can handle the extra screen space when in full screen mode. There are three modes, on off and null (the default). On = application uses that space however the developer chooses, off = black bar, null = user-configurable, with black bar by default. Sadly I’m on mobile and can’t find the Apple’s developer documentation for the flag, I saw it on HN the other day.
  - Waterluvian 5y ago
    So if I’m parsing this properly, this whole thing is just an illogical overreaction of perception and not reality?
    - elzbardico 5y ago
      Yep
makecheck 5y ago
I think it’s interesting because a notch would have a much bigger effect on other OS interfaces compared to the Mac. On the Mac, there is generally space up there anyway (usually menus on one side, icons on the other). In “full screen” they’ve decided to just black it out unless those same menus/icons are set to remain visible. In normal use, not really taking up important space. On other desktops though, it would appear to carve a piece out of the background.
- logicalmonster 5y ago
  This is a good point. On Windows, a notch in the same place would be very noticeable. On Mac OS, you'll likely have nothing in that part of the screen most of the time anyway. Apple makes bad engineering tradeoffs all of the time, but I'm not convinced that this is one of them. Most people will just be glad to have a bit more vertical real estate to work with.
  - boardwaalk 5y ago
    On Windows, you could pull essentially the same trick by putting the start menu at the top. I mean, in Windows 10. Not 11 because they half-ass rebuilt it, heh.
    - rewgs 5y ago
      Yeah but that would be absurd design: "75% of taskbar locations mean that you have a gap in your wallpaper." I mean, not beyond the scope of a design that still has some windows that haven't been changed in 25 years, but you know.
    - dcormier 5y ago
      It would be annoying in something like a full-screen game, though. It's not uncommon for them to have important UI elements right at the top center.
      - muthdra 5y ago
busymom0 5y ago
I don’t think the notch is a big deal on MacOS as that area has the menu bar anyway. It’s a much bigger deal on the iPhones. In dark mode, that notch won’t even be noticeable. I am curious however on why Apple didn’t do a punch hole instead since it doesn’t even have Face ID? Unless they are setting the expectation for next year when they do add Face ID? Also does anyone know what happens to the cursor around that area? Does the cursor go under that area or is it blocked from going in that area?
- destitude 5y ago
  Cursor goes under. Furthermore I can guarantee one of the first "hacks" to be available will be to always have a black bar across top to make it look like there isn't a notch for all those people that think it is worthless to have extra screen realestate.
- TimeBearingDown 5y ago
  My guess, they didn’t do a punch hole because they will use that space for FaceID soon. It also solidifies the notch as an Apple brand symbol, at a time when it may fade from the phone within a few years. So much advertising for apps and other services use notched iPhone screenshots, which is massive advertising for Apple. The notch ties the iPhone and Max together, and not by accident.
brokenmachine 5y ago
Great, another stupid trend that I hate started by Apple.
- anaganisk 5y ago
  I wonder how many hated the stupid trend of passing electricity thru rocks rather using vacuum tubes to build computers.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    That's a stupid analogy. Transistors were immediately much more reliable than vacuum tubes, and already almost as fast with massive efficiency improvement and almost limitless room for speed improvement as we've seen. So nobody hated that trend. A notch in the screen is simply an inconvenience, and this particular notch has no extra functionality, so it's simply a bad design. Maybe they'll add extra stuff in that spot for future models, but this model just has a missing chunk of screen for no reason. https://www.ultrabookreview.com/21772-laptops-small-thin-bezel/ https://www.ultrabookreview.com/21772-laptops-small-thin-bez... has a list of thin bezel laptops that shows that you can have a thin bezel without a notch.
    - anaganisk 5y ago
      You know before calling something stupid may be look deep? Everything starts somewhere dude, just because you don’t like it, it doesn’t become stupid. Transistors didn’t become AMD Ryzen EPYCs since day one. The first transistor was not even solid state and weren’t used since day one like you think, they went thru lot of changes to come where they are to replace vacuum tubes. This notch may not have the functionality you expect but they don’t consume any real estate of usable screen, they if anything add to menu bar. If you don’t like the aesthetics of it, why should I even consider what you like? Every aesthetic has haters.
      - brokenmachine 5y ago
        I had a look at the wikipedia page on transistors before I posted, but even had I not done that, it is obvious from where we are at now that a transistor had potential to be better than vacuum tubes. Going from a screen without a chunk out of it to a screen with a chunk missing from it is not an advantage in any way. A missing chunk of screen has no potential to be better than a complete screen. Complete screen > incomplete screen, simple as that. It's not simply an unlikable aesthetic, it is functionally worse in every way. It takes up the same physical space as a full screen, with less functionality. No amount of Apple fanboyism can change that fact. We are talking about this product, not some hypothetical future where that missing screen space is used for something more useful than a screen. They've gone in the correct direction for a few things in this product (HDMI, magsafe), but the screen chunk is a clear and obvious step backwards. How anyone could argue differently is beyond me.

48 points by FridayoLeary 5y ago

I wish they would mask the notch by making the area with the clock and the menu bar always full OLED black, so that it would be perceived as the menu bar bleeding into the border rather than the border bleeding into the screen.

kwdc 5y ago

As long as the notch is handled by the OS and software I doubt it will be a real issue. I've got a circle in the corner on my moto phone screen for the camera and I literally don't care. That circle buys me extra pixels the height of that camera for the full width of the screen. Doesn't impact movies or anything. Nice. Personally, this is the least of Apple's "problems" if you want to call them that. Having seen how easily serviceable Framework's laptops are, I think Apple need to rethink their designs. While I fully get the whole at-scale limitation that Apple operates in, I no longer see non-removeable batteries or other parts, eg ssd, as a necessary aspect of laptop manufacture. Its now going to be an indicator of just poor design. If Framework can make something that is serviceable then Apple should be able to innovate much better. I don't even think this is actually an engineering decision or problem. Its a business/design one.

tadfisher 5y ago
Apple hardware in the early-to-mid-90s was incredible for serviceability. You could replace the CPU on some Powerbooks without tools. Their desktops were even better.
user_named 5y ago
Customizability always disappears as a company grows to target the mainstream. There's no (strong) why for user repairs (yet;awaiting legislation) so it's not happening.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

0xdeadb00f 5y ago

Don't get me wrong I think it's silly... But I'd much rather have a notch on my laptop than a notch on my phone.

mehrdada 5y ago

I think the author needs to be reminded that the pixels to the left and right of the notch are basically free bonus pixels. They are not eating into the screen aspect ratio to build the notch. Given that, I prefer the notch to a thicker top bezel, as I will take any free vertical space I can get to basically offset wasted space by macOS menu bar.

wodenokoto 5y ago

I too think Apple did a poor job at introducing their new screen. When showing the screen growing into the sides of the frame, they could have paused and introduced their 16:10 aspect ratio (or whatever it is, below the notch) and then said "but we want that screen realestate to be used by you, and not by the MacOS menu, so we have moved the menu on top of the screen, surrounding the camera"

supermatt 5y ago

> "Apple's hiding the notch in a lot of its promo images on its own website. Not embarrassed, surely?" Actually, they aren't hiding it at all. The app in the picture is in fullscreen mode. They have added additional space on the vertical, and they take it away in fullscreen mode so the notch isnt an obstruction. They literally gave you additional vertical real estate and you complain because theres a notch it invalidates it... Im happy for the extra pixels that are being used by the menu bar, giving me more screen realestate to play with.

blitzar 5y ago

I have just glanced up at the top of my monitor where my logitech webcam sits to realise that is creates a notch in my monitor with its mounting hardware.

goerz 5y ago

I don’t know what the problem is. Seems top notch to me.

footlose_3815 5y ago

stupid notches, stupid phone designers making laptops

asteroidimpact 5y ago

Courage

Waterluvian 5y ago

I’m fascinated by this because it feels like a perception thing. Does the notch remove pixels or are you getting added pixels on both sides? What does the resolution and ratio tell us? If it was just a black bezel all the way across nobody would be commenting. If they make it all black unless an app can utilize it well (ie. playing a video full screen is a rectangle, rather than a rectangle with a notch cut out) I don’t see the issue.

wil421 5y ago
It is all back during full screen mode. Another commenter in the huge Apple MBP launch thread from Monday claimed it was extra pixels for the menu bar. Mac Rumors has a short article with screenshots of Xcode in full screen.[1] > According to Apple's marketing material, when macOS apps are in full-screen mode, macOS places an artificial black bezel at the top of the display that essentially hides the notch. When users are not in full-screen macOS apps, the notch remains, and the macOS Menu Bar has been made thicker to accommodate the notch. [1] https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/macos-hides-notch-on-new-macbook-pros/amp/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/macos-hides-notch-on-ne...
- tfehring 5y ago
  There’s a flag that Mac application developers can set indicating whether their application can handle the extra screen space when in full screen mode. There are three modes, on off and null (the default). On = application uses that space however the developer chooses, off = black bar, null = user-configurable, with black bar by default. Sadly I’m on mobile and can’t find the Apple’s developer documentation for the flag, I saw it on HN the other day.
- Waterluvian 5y ago
  So if I’m parsing this properly, this whole thing is just an illogical overreaction of perception and not reality?
  - elzbardico 5y ago
    Yep

makecheck 5y ago

I think it’s interesting because a notch would have a much bigger effect on other OS interfaces compared to the Mac. On the Mac, there is generally space up there anyway (usually menus on one side, icons on the other). In “full screen” they’ve decided to just black it out unless those same menus/icons are set to remain visible. In normal use, not really taking up important space. On other desktops though, it would appear to carve a piece out of the background.

logicalmonster 5y ago
This is a good point. On Windows, a notch in the same place would be very noticeable. On Mac OS, you'll likely have nothing in that part of the screen most of the time anyway. Apple makes bad engineering tradeoffs all of the time, but I'm not convinced that this is one of them. Most people will just be glad to have a bit more vertical real estate to work with.
- boardwaalk 5y ago
  On Windows, you could pull essentially the same trick by putting the start menu at the top. I mean, in Windows 10. Not 11 because they half-ass rebuilt it, heh.
  - rewgs 5y ago
    Yeah but that would be absurd design: "75% of taskbar locations mean that you have a gap in your wallpaper." I mean, not beyond the scope of a design that still has some windows that haven't been changed in 25 years, but you know.
  - dcormier 5y ago
    It would be annoying in something like a full-screen game, though. It's not uncommon for them to have important UI elements right at the top center.
    - muthdra 5y ago

busymom0 5y ago

I don’t think the notch is a big deal on MacOS as that area has the menu bar anyway. It’s a much bigger deal on the iPhones. In dark mode, that notch won’t even be noticeable. I am curious however on why Apple didn’t do a punch hole instead since it doesn’t even have Face ID? Unless they are setting the expectation for next year when they do add Face ID? Also does anyone know what happens to the cursor around that area? Does the cursor go under that area or is it blocked from going in that area?

destitude 5y ago
Cursor goes under. Furthermore I can guarantee one of the first "hacks" to be available will be to always have a black bar across top to make it look like there isn't a notch for all those people that think it is worthless to have extra screen realestate.
TimeBearingDown 5y ago
My guess, they didn’t do a punch hole because they will use that space for FaceID soon. It also solidifies the notch as an Apple brand symbol, at a time when it may fade from the phone within a few years. So much advertising for apps and other services use notched iPhone screenshots, which is massive advertising for Apple. The notch ties the iPhone and Max together, and not by accident.

brokenmachine 5y ago

Great, another stupid trend that I hate started by Apple.

anaganisk 5y ago
I wonder how many hated the stupid trend of passing electricity thru rocks rather using vacuum tubes to build computers.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  That's a stupid analogy. Transistors were immediately much more reliable than vacuum tubes, and already almost as fast with massive efficiency improvement and almost limitless room for speed improvement as we've seen. So nobody hated that trend. A notch in the screen is simply an inconvenience, and this particular notch has no extra functionality, so it's simply a bad design. Maybe they'll add extra stuff in that spot for future models, but this model just has a missing chunk of screen for no reason. https://www.ultrabookreview.com/21772-laptops-small-thin-bezel/ https://www.ultrabookreview.com/21772-laptops-small-thin-bez... has a list of thin bezel laptops that shows that you can have a thin bezel without a notch.
  - anaganisk 5y ago
    You know before calling something stupid may be look deep? Everything starts somewhere dude, just because you don’t like it, it doesn’t become stupid. Transistors didn’t become AMD Ryzen EPYCs since day one. The first transistor was not even solid state and weren’t used since day one like you think, they went thru lot of changes to come where they are to replace vacuum tubes. This notch may not have the functionality you expect but they don’t consume any real estate of usable screen, they if anything add to menu bar. If you don’t like the aesthetics of it, why should I even consider what you like? Every aesthetic has haters.
    - brokenmachine 5y ago
      I had a look at the wikipedia page on transistors before I posted, but even had I not done that, it is obvious from where we are at now that a transistor had potential to be better than vacuum tubes. Going from a screen without a chunk out of it to a screen with a chunk missing from it is not an advantage in any way. A missing chunk of screen has no potential to be better than a complete screen. Complete screen > incomplete screen, simple as that. It's not simply an unlikable aesthetic, it is functionally worse in every way. It takes up the same physical space as a full screen, with less functionality. No amount of Apple fanboyism can change that fact. We are talking about this product, not some hypothetical future where that missing screen space is used for something more useful than a screen. They've gone in the correct direction for a few things in this product (HDMI, magsafe), but the screen chunk is a clear and obvious step backwards. How anyone could argue differently is beyond me.