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I find the PS3 historically interesting partially because the convoluted architecture was a natural evolution of Sony's continuing steps to make developing for

by qqtt 5y ago

I find the PS3 historically interesting partially because the convoluted architecture was a natural evolution of Sony's continuing steps to make developing for their consoles harder and harder, driven partially by their arrogance at past success. The PS1 was basically a repackaged project from their Nintendo partnership. They didn't really have time to develop proper development tools for it, and almost as a consequence of that, the development environment was very scrappy - it hooked into existing PCs and included a bunch of libraries that developers were somewhat familiar with using. As a result, the developer toolset was relatively easy to use. It allowed many developers to get started making 3D games and experiences very quickly. This caused developers to be swayed to the Playstation ecosystem early, and drove all 3D resources into Playstation development away from the Sega Saturn, which had the typically convoluted development environment from past generations (further exacerbated by Sega bolting together additional chips onto the Saturn to try to compete with the PS1). PS2 came along, and Sony was already deviating from their easy to use console debut. Their "emotion engine" was notoriously hard to develop for, but Sega with the Dreamcast didn't have the legs to compete with Sony's momentum from the PS1, and quit the console business. Nintendo also screwed the pooch that generation with the Gamecube and Microsoft didn't seem to be a threat with the Xbox which was a major flop in Japan. Along comes PS3, and Sony goes full speed ahead on their hubris - expensive console, impossible to develop for, an architecture somewhat reminiscent of Saturn's hodge podge of chips. At this point they completely lost their way from what made the PS1 set them up for multi-generations of success. It's interesting to consider how the ecosystem matters when developing these hardware products, and how easy it seems for companies to lose sight of that.

rbanffy 5y ago
> impossible to develop for This is what I remember from the Cell (both BE and the “serious” version IBM used in blade servers). It’s a fascinating machine, but being inconvenient to write software for is a key weakness.
hbn 5y ago
On one hand, it's obviously the smart thing to keep your architecture standard in a world where most games are released cross-platform. Consoles are essentially just PCs with a set spec and in a clean wrapper at this point. But on the other hand it's also a bit disappointing that it's not really an option to make strange/interesting new architectures for a console. Consoles are one of the last holdovers from the era where computers were designed with the hardware and software built and integrated from the bottom up into a cohesive package. Where they'll do a new one only every 7 years or so, and users just expect to have to buy new software for them every time. So it sounds like a space where they could get away with weird innovations and risks, but because of the need to keep cross-platform development feasible, it's not really an option. I don't know. I see why it is the way it is, but I'd like to live in a world where consoles could get away with weirder things. Nintendo has kind of occupied that space with their touch screens and motion controls and whatnot, but the Switch is also more standard than ever before. Probably a net good for consumers though, with how much software is able to be ported to it.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  What's the benefit of being weird today? A console can achieve pretty amazing graphics with basically off-the-shelf components, so the company isn't really buying much buy rolling their own solution. The 3d was still being figured out in the 90s, which is what lead to so much diversity in product lineups. Not just for game consoles, but video cards, graphics API, etc. Being weird/unique was necessary because everyone was treading in uncharted territory. Prior to the 3d era, game consoles had repurposed/customized off the shelf components. The 6502 and it's variants were used in all kinds of consoles and computers. And the 68000 was used in many, many more. Gaming consoles have come full circle.
  - hbn 5y ago
    > What's the benefit of being weird today Same benefit it's always had: fun and innovation
- VortexDream 5y ago
  Interestingly, Apple is moving back towards the old console model. You now have a bespoke CPU/GPU platform from Apple running their own OS. I'd say we're already seeing the performance benefits of owning/designing/developing the whole stack.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Old 8 and 16 bit home computer model, not consoles. The IBM PC was an exception and only because IBM couldn't prevent Compaq to carry on.
  - Pulcinella 5y ago
    Apple likes to have their own platform tools (Swift, Metal, etc), but I wouldn’t exactly call ARM and PowerVR[0] bespoke. [0]Yeah Apple says the GPU[1]is entirely their design at this point, but then quietly reached some kind of agreement with Imagination in the past year or so. [1]Though considering how often GPU drivers need game specific updates and how fast GPUs change and improve, each GPU is almost like it’s own little bespoke platform.
lowbloodsugar 5y ago
Sony is a hardware company. So they thought they were great at making and evaluating hardware. Ironically, the CEO of nVidia once stated that nVidia is a software company - the graphics cards are just dongles that monetize the software. This is what Sony missed. The story I heard was that when sony finally went to buy a graphics card, they wouldn't pay for the software side of things. When nobody could get any performance out of it, they went back, cap in and and asked for the software to go with the hardware. Don't know if it's true, but I developed on PS3 and it feels true. As I understand it, it was US developers and leaders like Mark Cerny that begged sony to stop fucking around and just make a console with a big cpu and a big gpu.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  As I mentioned in another comment, I think PhyreEngine came out of it.

by qqtt 5y ago

rbanffy 5y ago

> impossible to develop for This is what I remember from the Cell (both BE and the “serious” version IBM used in blade servers). It’s a fascinating machine, but being inconvenient to write software for is a key weakness.

hbn 5y ago

On one hand, it's obviously the smart thing to keep your architecture standard in a world where most games are released cross-platform. Consoles are essentially just PCs with a set spec and in a clean wrapper at this point. But on the other hand it's also a bit disappointing that it's not really an option to make strange/interesting new architectures for a console. Consoles are one of the last holdovers from the era where computers were designed with the hardware and software built and integrated from the bottom up into a cohesive package. Where they'll do a new one only every 7 years or so, and users just expect to have to buy new software for them every time. So it sounds like a space where they could get away with weird innovations and risks, but because of the need to keep cross-platform development feasible, it's not really an option. I don't know. I see why it is the way it is, but I'd like to live in a world where consoles could get away with weirder things. Nintendo has kind of occupied that space with their touch screens and motion controls and whatnot, but the Switch is also more standard than ever before. Probably a net good for consumers though, with how much software is able to be ported to it.

mywittyname 5y ago
What's the benefit of being weird today? A console can achieve pretty amazing graphics with basically off-the-shelf components, so the company isn't really buying much buy rolling their own solution. The 3d was still being figured out in the 90s, which is what lead to so much diversity in product lineups. Not just for game consoles, but video cards, graphics API, etc. Being weird/unique was necessary because everyone was treading in uncharted territory. Prior to the 3d era, game consoles had repurposed/customized off the shelf components. The 6502 and it's variants were used in all kinds of consoles and computers. And the 68000 was used in many, many more. Gaming consoles have come full circle.
- hbn 5y ago
  > What's the benefit of being weird today Same benefit it's always had: fun and innovation
VortexDream 5y ago
Interestingly, Apple is moving back towards the old console model. You now have a bespoke CPU/GPU platform from Apple running their own OS. I'd say we're already seeing the performance benefits of owning/designing/developing the whole stack.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Old 8 and 16 bit home computer model, not consoles. The IBM PC was an exception and only because IBM couldn't prevent Compaq to carry on.
- Pulcinella 5y ago
  Apple likes to have their own platform tools (Swift, Metal, etc), but I wouldn’t exactly call ARM and PowerVR[0] bespoke. [0]Yeah Apple says the GPU[1]is entirely their design at this point, but then quietly reached some kind of agreement with Imagination in the past year or so. [1]Though considering how often GPU drivers need game specific updates and how fast GPUs change and improve, each GPU is almost like it’s own little bespoke platform.

lowbloodsugar 5y ago

Sony is a hardware company. So they thought they were great at making and evaluating hardware. Ironically, the CEO of nVidia once stated that nVidia is a software company - the graphics cards are just dongles that monetize the software. This is what Sony missed. The story I heard was that when sony finally went to buy a graphics card, they wouldn't pay for the software side of things. When nobody could get any performance out of it, they went back, cap in and and asked for the software to go with the hardware. Don't know if it's true, but I developed on PS3 and it feels true. As I understand it, it was US developers and leaders like Mark Cerny that begged sony to stop fucking around and just make a console with a big cpu and a big gpu.

pjmlp 5y ago
As I mentioned in another comment, I think PhyreEngine came out of it.