4 ms·

The Cahokia region did, certainly, but that would have been a minor blip in the total North American population, especially compared to the ~90% loss that happe

The Cahokia region did, certainly, but that would have been a minor blip in the total North American population, especially compared to the ~90% loss that happened following European arrival.

barbacoa 5y ago
The population decline of the Mayans happened around the same time. This decline was steep enough to be called a collapse. There has been much discussion as to the cause.
- jcranmer 5y ago
  Yeah, no. The Classic Maya collapse dates to around 900, which is before Cahokia even gets going.
  - culi 5y ago
    This. I don't know why people think of the Mayan empire or Cahokia as fundamentally different from the numerous "failed states" of the Mediterranean. I use quotes because there's increasing consensus that it's not so much a matter of failure as a matter of political revolution amongst the enslaved class forced to work in agriculture for the ruling class
    - thoweuroi24324 5y ago
      [flagged]
  - beaner 5y ago
    I think by "around the same time" he probably just means "plus or minus a few hundred years, before the Europeans". Point being that native collapse happened at large scale in multiple areas prior to European settling.
    - jjk166 5y ago
      That's like saying the Roman and Carthaginian empires both fell around the same time, and thus were part of the same event. Pre-industrial populations naturally fluctuate over time, and some regions may have been in a slight decline prior to European contact, but nothing at all comparable to after contact, when population decreased by about 90% in 50 years.
      - barbacoa 5y ago
        Maya is notable because a region that once supported a large population quickly underwent large scale depopulation for reasons that are not clear to us today. This wasn't a matter of one nation collapsing only to absorbed by another. We're talking about a population in the millions to 10s of millions that just faded away. All of this occurred pre-Columbian. >That's like saying the Roman and Carthaginian empires both fell around the same time, and thus were part of the same event. Not trying to say they were caused by the same event but it does seem to be a trend that Native America had issues sustaining permanent population centers like you saw in other parts of the world.
        jcranmer 5y ago
        > We're talking about a population in the millions to 10s of millions that just faded away. Okay, this is just plain false. The Classical Maya collapse could be compared to the Fall of Rome or the end of the Han dynasty (although perhaps I should use Tang instead for historical proximity). That is to say, the Maya didn't disappear. Completely the opposite--the Classical Maya collapse is actually reflected in the rise of the Yucatec and other lowland Mayan city centers, notably Chichen Itza, which would itself decline a few hundred years later, before the city of Mayapan rose to prominence, again declining again a hundred-ish years later. Mayan city states remained independent and following Mayan cultural and religious practices even after the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs, with the last Mayan kingdom falling only in 1697. Even then, while no longer independent, Mayan culture still persists to this day. There are civilizations that are hard to trace. What happened to the people of, say, Cahokia or Teotihuacan are still a mystery to this day. But the Maya are absolutely not one of those.

The Cahokia region did, certainly, but that would have been a minor blip in the total North American population, especially compared to the ~90% loss that happened following European arrival.

barbacoa 5y ago

The population decline of the Mayans happened around the same time. This decline was steep enough to be called a collapse. There has been much discussion as to the cause.

jcranmer 5y ago
Yeah, no. The Classic Maya collapse dates to around 900, which is before Cahokia even gets going.
- culi 5y ago
  This. I don't know why people think of the Mayan empire or Cahokia as fundamentally different from the numerous "failed states" of the Mediterranean. I use quotes because there's increasing consensus that it's not so much a matter of failure as a matter of political revolution amongst the enslaved class forced to work in agriculture for the ruling class
  - thoweuroi24324 5y ago
    [flagged]
- beaner 5y ago
  I think by "around the same time" he probably just means "plus or minus a few hundred years, before the Europeans". Point being that native collapse happened at large scale in multiple areas prior to European settling.
  - jjk166 5y ago
    That's like saying the Roman and Carthaginian empires both fell around the same time, and thus were part of the same event. Pre-industrial populations naturally fluctuate over time, and some regions may have been in a slight decline prior to European contact, but nothing at all comparable to after contact, when population decreased by about 90% in 50 years.
    - barbacoa 5y ago
      Maya is notable because a region that once supported a large population quickly underwent large scale depopulation for reasons that are not clear to us today. This wasn't a matter of one nation collapsing only to absorbed by another. We're talking about a population in the millions to 10s of millions that just faded away. All of this occurred pre-Columbian. >That's like saying the Roman and Carthaginian empires both fell around the same time, and thus were part of the same event. Not trying to say they were caused by the same event but it does seem to be a trend that Native America had issues sustaining permanent population centers like you saw in other parts of the world.
      - jcranmer 5y ago
        > We're talking about a population in the millions to 10s of millions that just faded away. Okay, this is just plain false. The Classical Maya collapse could be compared to the Fall of Rome or the end of the Han dynasty (although perhaps I should use Tang instead for historical proximity). That is to say, the Maya didn't disappear. Completely the opposite--the Classical Maya collapse is actually reflected in the rise of the Yucatec and other lowland Mayan city centers, notably Chichen Itza, which would itself decline a few hundred years later, before the city of Mayapan rose to prominence, again declining again a hundred-ish years later. Mayan city states remained independent and following Mayan cultural and religious practices even after the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs, with the last Mayan kingdom falling only in 1697. Even then, while no longer independent, Mayan culture still persists to this day. There are civilizations that are hard to trace. What happened to the people of, say, Cahokia or Teotihuacan are still a mystery to this day. But the Maya are absolutely not one of those.