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Indigenous populations started dropping centuries before Columbus and we don’t know why. (Of course they dropped further after Columbian contact) https://en.m.

Indigenous populations started dropping centuries before Columbus and we don’t know why. (Of course they dropped further after Columbian contact) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia#Decline%20(13th%20and%2014th%20centuries) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia#Decline%20(13th%20an... > The population of Cahokia began to decline during the 13th century, and the site was eventually abandoned by around 1350.

lkrubner 5y ago
As Fernand Braudel said, populations in Europe, China and and North America seems to roughly mirror one another for most of the last 5,000 years. The only possible explanation is the climate. Some centuries were good in the northern hemisphere, and some were bad. Not all at once, and not uniformly, but enough that we can see some link.
noetic_techy 5y ago
There are stories of Roman and Asian contact with the America's. Perhaps disease was brought over earlier then we thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_co...
- xanaxagoras 5y ago
  Is there a reason to assume disease couldn't have come into existence in this native population itself?
  - krrrh 5y ago
    If a disease native to the Americas emerged and became endemic, it would have infected Europeans when they arrived. There’s a good CGP Grey video on this called Americapox. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JEYh5WACqEk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JEYh5WACqEk
ProjectArcturis 5y ago
The Cahokia region did, certainly, but that would have been a minor blip in the total North American population, especially compared to the ~90% loss that happened following European arrival.
- barbacoa 5y ago
  The population decline of the Mayans happened around the same time. This decline was steep enough to be called a collapse. There has been much discussion as to the cause.
  - jcranmer 5y ago
    Yeah, no. The Classic Maya collapse dates to around 900, which is before Cahokia even gets going.
    - culi 5y ago
      This. I don't know why people think of the Mayan empire or Cahokia as fundamentally different from the numerous "failed states" of the Mediterranean. I use quotes because there's increasing consensus that it's not so much a matter of failure as a matter of political revolution amongst the enslaved class forced to work in agriculture for the ruling class
      - thoweuroi24324 5y ago
        [flagged]
    - beaner 5y ago
      I think by "around the same time" he probably just means "plus or minus a few hundred years, before the Europeans". Point being that native collapse happened at large scale in multiple areas prior to European settling.
      - jjk166 5y ago
finiteseries 5y ago
No, there’s no indication of population dropping in that article, only the dissolution of a city. I’m not read up on Cahokia, but it’s probably more similar to the dissolution/dispersal of the (lowland) Maya vs something like a mass die off. Pre contact population centers were additionally in Mesoamérica & northern South America, where most of the total post contact population drop occurred.
gremloni 5y ago
That’s no indication at all. That’s like saying everyone in the old world was dying because gobekli tepe was abandoned in 3000 BC.

lkrubner 5y ago

As Fernand Braudel said, populations in Europe, China and and North America seems to roughly mirror one another for most of the last 5,000 years. The only possible explanation is the climate. Some centuries were good in the northern hemisphere, and some were bad. Not all at once, and not uniformly, but enough that we can see some link.

noetic_techy 5y ago

There are stories of Roman and Asian contact with the America's. Perhaps disease was brought over earlier then we thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_co...

xanaxagoras 5y ago
Is there a reason to assume disease couldn't have come into existence in this native population itself?
- krrrh 5y ago
  If a disease native to the Americas emerged and became endemic, it would have infected Europeans when they arrived. There’s a good CGP Grey video on this called Americapox. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JEYh5WACqEk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JEYh5WACqEk

ProjectArcturis 5y ago

The Cahokia region did, certainly, but that would have been a minor blip in the total North American population, especially compared to the ~90% loss that happened following European arrival.

barbacoa 5y ago
The population decline of the Mayans happened around the same time. This decline was steep enough to be called a collapse. There has been much discussion as to the cause.
- jcranmer 5y ago
  Yeah, no. The Classic Maya collapse dates to around 900, which is before Cahokia even gets going.
  - culi 5y ago
    This. I don't know why people think of the Mayan empire or Cahokia as fundamentally different from the numerous "failed states" of the Mediterranean. I use quotes because there's increasing consensus that it's not so much a matter of failure as a matter of political revolution amongst the enslaved class forced to work in agriculture for the ruling class
    - thoweuroi24324 5y ago
      [flagged]
  - beaner 5y ago
    I think by "around the same time" he probably just means "plus or minus a few hundred years, before the Europeans". Point being that native collapse happened at large scale in multiple areas prior to European settling.
    - jjk166 5y ago

finiteseries 5y ago

No, there’s no indication of population dropping in that article, only the dissolution of a city. I’m not read up on Cahokia, but it’s probably more similar to the dissolution/dispersal of the (lowland) Maya vs something like a mass die off. Pre contact population centers were additionally in Mesoamérica & northern South America, where most of the total post contact population drop occurred.

gremloni 5y ago

That’s no indication at all. That’s like saying everyone in the old world was dying because gobekli tepe was abandoned in 3000 BC.