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Mesoamerica had high population densities long before Spain was even a thing. Indigenous Americans didn't carry over many of the serious diseases from the old

Mesoamerica had high population densities long before Spain was even a thing. Indigenous Americans didn't carry over many of the serious diseases from the old world and the animals that were there mostly didn't contribute serious new ones. There are a few cases where we can see things like tuberculosis (from seals), but they're limited and evidence of them largely hasn't survived in extant populations. Likewise, Icelandic populations were isolated and relatively healthy. Those that survived the long trip to Greenland and the Americas would have been even more so.

jeltz 5y ago
Roman Spain had high population densities much earlier.
- tomjakubowski 5y ago
  Not true. Large Maya cities existed hundreds of years before Romans colonized Hispania. Nakbe was abandoned, hundreds of years after its peak, ca. 200-100 BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakbe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakbe
afarrell 5y ago
> before Spain was even a thing note: Spain was unified in 1491.
- anthk 5y ago
  Not all. Navarre was out, then it was conquered in 1512. And yet, it was not fully integrated into Spain. They had their own currency and customs. Also, they had no military service duties. That until mid 1800s.
danjac 5y ago
> the animals that were there mostly didn't contribute serious new ones Aren't syphilis and Lyme disease of New World origin?
- AlotOfReading 5y ago
  There's quite a lot of debate over the precise origins of syphilis. I'm only peripherally familiar with the literature, but my understanding is that recent work suggests (but not concludes) that it might have been endemic to afroeurasia rather than or as well as the Americas. Lyme disease is indeed wholly American, but it's not epidemic or even particularly mortal.
  - COGlory 5y ago
    I enjoyed this paper on the origins and distribution of Treponema (the bug that causes syphilis and a few other skin diseases). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956094/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956094/
    - Telemakhos 5y ago
      I'm surprised that paper got published, considering the basic spelling errors ("jaws" for "yaws") and errors of fact ("Española Island…a part of the Galápagos Islands").
      - vidarh 5y ago
        > considering the basic spelling errors ("jaws" for "yaws") Missing a single erroroneous instance of a word that won't get caught by spell check may be embarrassing, but it's hardly material. > ("Española Island…a part of the Galápagos Islands") https://www.galapagos.org/about_galapagos/about-galapagos/the-islands/espanola/ https://www.galapagos.org/about_galapagos/about-galapagos/th... What is the error here?
        Telemakhos 5y ago
        There are several islands in the world that have had the name Española. The one that is relevant to the discussion about syphilis is now more commonly known as Hispanola, home to Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Columbus visited in 1492/3 and supposedly brought back Syphilis in 1493. The Galapagos islands are in the Pacific, and were never visited by Columbus.
voz_ 5y ago
> Mesoamerica had high population densities long before Spain was even a thing. Citation needed?
- nl 5y ago
  According to NASA archaeologist Tom Sever, the Mayan civilization in Mesoamerica was one of the densest populations in human history. Around 800 A.D., after two millennia of steady growth, the Mayan population reached an all-time high. Population density ranged from 500 to 700 people per square mile in the rural areas, and from 1,800 to 2,600 people per square mile near the center of the Mayan Empire (in what is now northern Guatemala). In comparison, Los Angeles County averaged 2,345 people per square mile in 2000.[1] [1] https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Maya https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Maya
  - voz_ 5y ago
    Right, agreed entirely, this is higher than the numbers I recall from reading, but same order of magnitude. It was the flippant reference to Spain regarding chronology that I took umbrage with. Thats ~700 years after the area of Spain was named Spain (Latin Hispaniola in the Roman empire, iirc). I always find the slightly emotional charge discussions (and subsequent downvotes) odd. There seems to be a very strong interest in certain groups to downplay or deride either the colonized, or colonizing side on measurements such as perceived development.
    - nl 5y ago
      > It was the flippant reference to Spain regarding chronology that I took umbrage with. Thats ~700 years after the area of Spain was named Spain (Latin Hispaniola in the Roman empire, iirc). Obviously the land area of Spain has "always" existed. I think referring to "Spain's existence" as the socio-political entity established during the Reconquista is a reasonable position for a throw-away line during a HN discussion.
    - AlotOfReading 5y ago
      It's true even if we're very pedantic. Mesoamerica has had urbanization and high population densities for quite a long time. Michael Smith has pointed out pretty high urbanization rates (approaching 20%) even in the terminal formative period. Typical numbers I've seen are somewhere in the 8-12+ish people/km^2 range. That's roughly comparable to the western Roman empire at the time. But yes, I did mean the kingdom, not a separate term in another language for a peninsula that doesn't really correspond to the modern area.

jeltz 5y ago

Roman Spain had high population densities much earlier.

tomjakubowski 5y ago
Not true. Large Maya cities existed hundreds of years before Romans colonized Hispania. Nakbe was abandoned, hundreds of years after its peak, ca. 200-100 BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakbe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakbe

afarrell 5y ago

> before Spain was even a thing note: Spain was unified in 1491.

anthk 5y ago
Not all. Navarre was out, then it was conquered in 1512. And yet, it was not fully integrated into Spain. They had their own currency and customs. Also, they had no military service duties. That until mid 1800s.

danjac 5y ago

> the animals that were there mostly didn't contribute serious new ones Aren't syphilis and Lyme disease of New World origin?

AlotOfReading 5y ago
There's quite a lot of debate over the precise origins of syphilis. I'm only peripherally familiar with the literature, but my understanding is that recent work suggests (but not concludes) that it might have been endemic to afroeurasia rather than or as well as the Americas. Lyme disease is indeed wholly American, but it's not epidemic or even particularly mortal.
- COGlory 5y ago
  I enjoyed this paper on the origins and distribution of Treponema (the bug that causes syphilis and a few other skin diseases). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956094/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956094/
  - Telemakhos 5y ago
    I'm surprised that paper got published, considering the basic spelling errors ("jaws" for "yaws") and errors of fact ("Española Island…a part of the Galápagos Islands").
    - vidarh 5y ago
      > considering the basic spelling errors ("jaws" for "yaws") Missing a single erroroneous instance of a word that won't get caught by spell check may be embarrassing, but it's hardly material. > ("Española Island…a part of the Galápagos Islands") https://www.galapagos.org/about_galapagos/about-galapagos/the-islands/espanola/ https://www.galapagos.org/about_galapagos/about-galapagos/th... What is the error here?
      - Telemakhos 5y ago
        There are several islands in the world that have had the name Española. The one that is relevant to the discussion about syphilis is now more commonly known as Hispanola, home to Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Columbus visited in 1492/3 and supposedly brought back Syphilis in 1493. The Galapagos islands are in the Pacific, and were never visited by Columbus.

voz_ 5y ago

> Mesoamerica had high population densities long before Spain was even a thing. Citation needed?

nl 5y ago
According to NASA archaeologist Tom Sever, the Mayan civilization in Mesoamerica was one of the densest populations in human history. Around 800 A.D., after two millennia of steady growth, the Mayan population reached an all-time high. Population density ranged from 500 to 700 people per square mile in the rural areas, and from 1,800 to 2,600 people per square mile near the center of the Mayan Empire (in what is now northern Guatemala). In comparison, Los Angeles County averaged 2,345 people per square mile in 2000.[1] [1] https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Maya https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Maya
- voz_ 5y ago
  Right, agreed entirely, this is higher than the numbers I recall from reading, but same order of magnitude. It was the flippant reference to Spain regarding chronology that I took umbrage with. Thats ~700 years after the area of Spain was named Spain (Latin Hispaniola in the Roman empire, iirc). I always find the slightly emotional charge discussions (and subsequent downvotes) odd. There seems to be a very strong interest in certain groups to downplay or deride either the colonized, or colonizing side on measurements such as perceived development.
  - nl 5y ago
    > It was the flippant reference to Spain regarding chronology that I took umbrage with. Thats ~700 years after the area of Spain was named Spain (Latin Hispaniola in the Roman empire, iirc). Obviously the land area of Spain has "always" existed. I think referring to "Spain's existence" as the socio-political entity established during the Reconquista is a reasonable position for a throw-away line during a HN discussion.
  - AlotOfReading 5y ago
    It's true even if we're very pedantic. Mesoamerica has had urbanization and high population densities for quite a long time. Michael Smith has pointed out pretty high urbanization rates (approaching 20%) even in the terminal formative period. Typical numbers I've seen are somewhere in the 8-12+ish people/km^2 range. That's roughly comparable to the western Roman empire at the time. But yes, I did mean the kingdom, not a separate term in another language for a peninsula that doesn't really correspond to the modern area.