8 ms·

Banning private schools is a completely different matter from banning public schools’ gifted programs, as is being discussed here. Apples to oranges.

aaomidi 5y ago
Not really. There shouldn't be "gifted programs", because they're not actually measuring "intelligence" but "how much money do the parents have to create extra schooling" What about this, why not have __every__ school provide personalized education to each person? Do we not have the money for that? Because we are __the richest country__.
- andrepd 5y ago
  But that's precisely what we're saying: gifted programs for any student, regardless of wealth. You have special education for students with needs that prevent them from being able to learn in a "normal" classroom, why not for gifted students as well?
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    > gifted programs for any student, regardless of wealth. Right "any student" - so please explain to me what causes the huge disproportionate racial gap in these schools? There's really two arguments here: - Biological - Non biological If anyone thinks its the first one, I'm not having this discussion with you. If you think it's the second one, are taxes going to gifted schools actually...helping society?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - colpabar 5y ago
      Do you really expect anyone to engage with you in good faith when you state you'll only accept certain answers?
      - aaomidi 5y ago
        Show me what I missed then. What could be an explanation of why there is a huge difference in racial demographics when it comes to these schools that don't fall into one of those two categories?
        colpabar 5y ago
        Idk, but there's lot to read. Here's an article I just found https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-score-gap-why-it-persists-and-what-can-be-done/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-scor... > Traditional explanations for the black-white test score gap have not stood up well to the test of time. During the 1960s, most liberals blamed the gap on some combination of black poverty, racial segregation, and inadequate funding of black schools. Since then, the number of affluent black families has grown dramatically, but their children’s test scores still lag far behind those of white children from equally affluent families. School desegregation may have played some role in reducing the black-white test score gap in the South, but school desegregation also seems to have costs for blacks, and when we compare initially similar students in today’s schools, those who attend desegregated schools learn only slightly more than those in segregated schools. Automatically blaming any discrepancy on outcomes between different racial groups on racism isn't helping anyone. It also doesn't really feel like you're looking to discuss or learn anything here, rather just to scold people for being racist. This is a tough question that doesn't have a solid answer yet.
        aaomidi 5y ago
        > rather just to scold people for being racist Where did I scold people, or call people racist? I said I'm not interested in the discussion if you think there is a _biological reason_ behind it.
        colpabar 5y ago
        Well, I'd guess that most people here are not interested in a discussion that involves working backwards from an already chosen solution rather than figuring out what the solution is without any ideas being forbidden from the start. (myself included) Good luck!
    - dsjegkl 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
    - selestify 5y ago
      > If you think it's the second one, are taxes going to gifted schools actually...helping society? Of course those taxes are helping society. There are gifted students living in poor school districts who wouldn't be getting the resources that let them excel if it weren't for the tax dollars funding those resources for them.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      Does giving more tax money to underperforming schools help society? I'll answer that question myself: no, it does not. Detroit Public Schools receives more funding per student than the average school district in Michigan, yet it is one of the worst performing school districts in the nation. You cannot simply throw money at bad schools to make them better, so why punish gifted students by removing their ability to learn at a level that's more appropriate for them?
    - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
      “Non-biological” can mean cultural, not just economical.
      - aaomidi 5y ago
        Definitely. But this is where C.R.T comes in and asks "why do we think certain demographics don't value education culturally?"
        aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
        Sorry, I’m not familiar with C.R.T. What is their proposal?
        thegrimmest 5y ago
        Why do we think it's our business exactly? If some cultural groups don't value education, isn't that their prerogative? Why do we think we need to get involved in the interest of representation?
        zozbot234 5y ago
        Uh, could that be because it just takes time (often measured in generations) for historically-ingrained attitudes to shift in a socially-beneficial direction? What a silly question. Mind you, the C. R. T. folks are the ones who keep telling us that having a "good education", "getting the right answer" and "being on time" are uniquely oppressive "White values" and that Blacks are just different.
    - andrepd 5y ago
      Which schools in particular? Please link me some data, I don't know what you are discussing.
    - Enginerrrd 5y ago
      One answer: If you have a selection process that compares a minority group against the general population for any metric which produces a well-defined ranking, and then selects for the top X% of performers on that metric, then you will end up with a selected group that has a lower proportion of the minority group. To put this in clearer language: If I have a bunch of 100-sided dice: 90 blue dice in one bucket, and 10 red dice in another, and I roll them all and select the top 10 numbers rolled, I'll have a greater proportion than 90% of blue dice, because there are more total dice rolls in that group.
      - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
        This doesn’t sound right. Can you prove this?
        pandaman 5y ago
        I guess he is alluding to effects of rounding up/down in small samples but those cannot be biased in one direction. Nor are they certain to happen. If I toss 9 quarters and a nickel and count the fraction of tails that rolled on the nickel then it will be equal to 1/10 of all the tails only if all coins roll tails or all roll heads i.e. in 2 outcomes out of 1024. In half of the other cases nickel tails will be overrepresented and in in the other half - underrepresented. It's because you cannot roll a fraction of a tail.
        Enginerrrd 5y ago
        I just ran some monte carlo simulations. Turns out I was totally wrong, at least for a uniform distribution. I now suspect it's probably true for any distribution, but I can't prove it yet. It just seems really odd to me: It seems like because you get 9x the number of dice rolls for one group you would end up with a final distribution that favors the majority group, but that is obviously not the case. I need to wrap my brain around that one.
    - FFRefresh 5y ago
      To follow-up from your first question: What do you think explains the unequal distribution of outcomes WITHIN races in terms of school performance?
    - Papirola 5y ago
      I would like to apply this line of thought to the NBA. There is lack of diversity there as well.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  I was in some gifted programs that were based on an IQ cutoff. I know its an imperfect measurement and we can work on better ones but theres a difference between a private school (how much money) and a gifted program.
- l30n4da5 5y ago
  > Not really. There shouldn't be "gifted programs", because they're not actually measuring "intelligence" but "how much money do the parents have to create extra schooling" I think you have a misunderstanding about what a gifted program is. I went through a gifted program as a child and I can assure you that my parents paid no money for it, considering our income was so low that we qualified for free lunches in school.
  - xmaayy 5y ago
    I also went through a gifted program. It was at one of the most poorly funded schools, and I had to take a 1.5 hour bus ride to get there. It was definitely not the most convenient option, and it was not the best school available by far.
  - Godel_unicode 5y ago
    Pretty sure this comment is about the fact that if you can pay for tutoring your kid is likely to do better in the thing they were tutored on, which in turn will make them more likely to get into. GT program. Keep in mind that all of this about population-level stuff, nobody is saying that poor people can't get into these programs, merely that the hill is steeper.
- colpabar 5y ago
  When I was in 6th grade, I took a test that put me into algebra in 7th grade. The other options were pre-algebra, or remedial math. My parents didn't pay anyone, and this actually took place when I switched from private school to public school. How was that not a measure of my intelligence? Don't you think I would have missed out in terms of education if I was placed in the lowest tier, which is effectively what removing gifted programs does?
- LocalH 5y ago
  Are you suggesting that private tutoring should be illegal?

aaomidi 5y ago

Not really. There shouldn't be "gifted programs", because they're not actually measuring "intelligence" but "how much money do the parents have to create extra schooling" What about this, why not have __every__ school provide personalized education to each person? Do we not have the money for that? Because we are __the richest country__.

andrepd 5y ago
But that's precisely what we're saying: gifted programs for any student, regardless of wealth. You have special education for students with needs that prevent them from being able to learn in a "normal" classroom, why not for gifted students as well?
- aaomidi 5y ago
  > gifted programs for any student, regardless of wealth. Right "any student" - so please explain to me what causes the huge disproportionate racial gap in these schools? There's really two arguments here: - Biological - Non biological If anyone thinks its the first one, I'm not having this discussion with you. If you think it's the second one, are taxes going to gifted schools actually...helping society?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - colpabar 5y ago
    Do you really expect anyone to engage with you in good faith when you state you'll only accept certain answers?
    - aaomidi 5y ago
      Show me what I missed then. What could be an explanation of why there is a huge difference in racial demographics when it comes to these schools that don't fall into one of those two categories?
      - colpabar 5y ago
        Idk, but there's lot to read. Here's an article I just found https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-score-gap-why-it-persists-and-what-can-be-done/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-scor... > Traditional explanations for the black-white test score gap have not stood up well to the test of time. During the 1960s, most liberals blamed the gap on some combination of black poverty, racial segregation, and inadequate funding of black schools. Since then, the number of affluent black families has grown dramatically, but their children’s test scores still lag far behind those of white children from equally affluent families. School desegregation may have played some role in reducing the black-white test score gap in the South, but school desegregation also seems to have costs for blacks, and when we compare initially similar students in today’s schools, those who attend desegregated schools learn only slightly more than those in segregated schools. Automatically blaming any discrepancy on outcomes between different racial groups on racism isn't helping anyone. It also doesn't really feel like you're looking to discuss or learn anything here, rather just to scold people for being racist. This is a tough question that doesn't have a solid answer yet.
        aaomidi 5y ago
        > rather just to scold people for being racist Where did I scold people, or call people racist? I said I'm not interested in the discussion if you think there is a _biological reason_ behind it.
        colpabar 5y ago
        Well, I'd guess that most people here are not interested in a discussion that involves working backwards from an already chosen solution rather than figuring out what the solution is without any ideas being forbidden from the start. (myself included) Good luck!
  - dsjegkl 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
  - selestify 5y ago
    > If you think it's the second one, are taxes going to gifted schools actually...helping society? Of course those taxes are helping society. There are gifted students living in poor school districts who wouldn't be getting the resources that let them excel if it weren't for the tax dollars funding those resources for them.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    Does giving more tax money to underperforming schools help society? I'll answer that question myself: no, it does not. Detroit Public Schools receives more funding per student than the average school district in Michigan, yet it is one of the worst performing school districts in the nation. You cannot simply throw money at bad schools to make them better, so why punish gifted students by removing their ability to learn at a level that's more appropriate for them?
  - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
    “Non-biological” can mean cultural, not just economical.
    - aaomidi 5y ago
      Definitely. But this is where C.R.T comes in and asks "why do we think certain demographics don't value education culturally?"
      - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
        Sorry, I’m not familiar with C.R.T. What is their proposal?
      - thegrimmest 5y ago
        Why do we think it's our business exactly? If some cultural groups don't value education, isn't that their prerogative? Why do we think we need to get involved in the interest of representation?
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        Uh, could that be because it just takes time (often measured in generations) for historically-ingrained attitudes to shift in a socially-beneficial direction? What a silly question. Mind you, the C. R. T. folks are the ones who keep telling us that having a "good education", "getting the right answer" and "being on time" are uniquely oppressive "White values" and that Blacks are just different.
  - andrepd 5y ago
    Which schools in particular? Please link me some data, I don't know what you are discussing.
  - Enginerrrd 5y ago
    One answer: If you have a selection process that compares a minority group against the general population for any metric which produces a well-defined ranking, and then selects for the top X% of performers on that metric, then you will end up with a selected group that has a lower proportion of the minority group. To put this in clearer language: If I have a bunch of 100-sided dice: 90 blue dice in one bucket, and 10 red dice in another, and I roll them all and select the top 10 numbers rolled, I'll have a greater proportion than 90% of blue dice, because there are more total dice rolls in that group.
    - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
      This doesn’t sound right. Can you prove this?
      - pandaman 5y ago
        I guess he is alluding to effects of rounding up/down in small samples but those cannot be biased in one direction. Nor are they certain to happen. If I toss 9 quarters and a nickel and count the fraction of tails that rolled on the nickel then it will be equal to 1/10 of all the tails only if all coins roll tails or all roll heads i.e. in 2 outcomes out of 1024. In half of the other cases nickel tails will be overrepresented and in in the other half - underrepresented. It's because you cannot roll a fraction of a tail.
      - Enginerrrd 5y ago
        I just ran some monte carlo simulations. Turns out I was totally wrong, at least for a uniform distribution. I now suspect it's probably true for any distribution, but I can't prove it yet. It just seems really odd to me: It seems like because you get 9x the number of dice rolls for one group you would end up with a final distribution that favors the majority group, but that is obviously not the case. I need to wrap my brain around that one.
  - FFRefresh 5y ago
    To follow-up from your first question: What do you think explains the unequal distribution of outcomes WITHIN races in terms of school performance?
  - Papirola 5y ago
    I would like to apply this line of thought to the NBA. There is lack of diversity there as well.
collegeburner 5y ago
I was in some gifted programs that were based on an IQ cutoff. I know its an imperfect measurement and we can work on better ones but theres a difference between a private school (how much money) and a gifted program.
l30n4da5 5y ago
> Not really. There shouldn't be "gifted programs", because they're not actually measuring "intelligence" but "how much money do the parents have to create extra schooling" I think you have a misunderstanding about what a gifted program is. I went through a gifted program as a child and I can assure you that my parents paid no money for it, considering our income was so low that we qualified for free lunches in school.
- xmaayy 5y ago
  I also went through a gifted program. It was at one of the most poorly funded schools, and I had to take a 1.5 hour bus ride to get there. It was definitely not the most convenient option, and it was not the best school available by far.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  Pretty sure this comment is about the fact that if you can pay for tutoring your kid is likely to do better in the thing they were tutored on, which in turn will make them more likely to get into. GT program. Keep in mind that all of this about population-level stuff, nobody is saying that poor people can't get into these programs, merely that the hill is steeper.
colpabar 5y ago
When I was in 6th grade, I took a test that put me into algebra in 7th grade. The other options were pre-algebra, or remedial math. My parents didn't pay anyone, and this actually took place when I switched from private school to public school. How was that not a measure of my intelligence? Don't you think I would have missed out in terms of education if I was placed in the lowest tier, which is effectively what removing gifted programs does?
LocalH 5y ago
Are you suggesting that private tutoring should be illegal?