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I don't really understand your argument. Are you trying to say that "How to Lie with Statistics" is wrong? That's an unbelievably bold assertion to make on an e

I don't really understand your argument. Are you trying to say that "How to Lie with Statistics" is wrong? That's an unbelievably bold assertion to make on an engineering-focused site where we regularly work with deceptive stats that the public eats up.

hallarempt 5y ago
You don't? It's crystal clear to me: that book was paid for, as was its sequel, so industrialists could argue that statistics from independent researchers were not to be trusted. Whether or not the book was right or wrong is not part of that contention.
bananabreakfast 5y ago
Wait, are you trying to say it's not wrong? It was specifically paid for and used to cast widespread doubt on smoking leading to lung cancer. It tried to convince people that "the science isn't settled" when the evidence was overwhelming. It's an incredibly disingenuous and cynical piece of work that posits truth does not really exist b/c all "experts" are just lying to you with an agenda. Therefore, you can't ever really know the truth, therefore keep smoking.
dredmorbius 5y ago
It is deceptive and misleading with an intent to promote specific goals and agenda. The salient characteristic of propaganda is not that it is (entirely) false. It is that it serves a specific interest and agenda rather than being a good-faith, best-effort attempt to convey truth. It's a fundamental conflict in communications dating at least to Plato and the philosophers vs. the sophists. Propaganda is most effective when it wraps its intended payload in an attractive, largely truthful message, and acts to nudge its intended targets in a direction they're inclined to go already. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophist
- TigeriusKirk 5y ago
  The primary rule of successful propaganda is "Don't lie about facts, control the interpretation." False facts will get caught out. All you can do with an interpretation is argue about it.
  - nautilius 5y ago
    You sure? Have you read/watched any news since 2016?
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    There are various methods. Control is one. The Big Lie another, direct attacks on trust and truth another. Sheer overlwhelming and distraction as well.

hallarempt 5y ago

You don't? It's crystal clear to me: that book was paid for, as was its sequel, so industrialists could argue that statistics from independent researchers were not to be trusted. Whether or not the book was right or wrong is not part of that contention.

bananabreakfast 5y ago

Wait, are you trying to say it's not wrong? It was specifically paid for and used to cast widespread doubt on smoking leading to lung cancer. It tried to convince people that "the science isn't settled" when the evidence was overwhelming. It's an incredibly disingenuous and cynical piece of work that posits truth does not really exist b/c all "experts" are just lying to you with an agenda. Therefore, you can't ever really know the truth, therefore keep smoking.

dredmorbius 5y ago

It is deceptive and misleading with an intent to promote specific goals and agenda. The salient characteristic of propaganda is not that it is (entirely) false. It is that it serves a specific interest and agenda rather than being a good-faith, best-effort attempt to convey truth. It's a fundamental conflict in communications dating at least to Plato and the philosophers vs. the sophists. Propaganda is most effective when it wraps its intended payload in an attractive, largely truthful message, and acts to nudge its intended targets in a direction they're inclined to go already. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophist

TigeriusKirk 5y ago
The primary rule of successful propaganda is "Don't lie about facts, control the interpretation." False facts will get caught out. All you can do with an interpretation is argue about it.
- nautilius 5y ago
  You sure? Have you read/watched any news since 2016?
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  There are various methods. Control is one. The Big Lie another, direct attacks on trust and truth another. Sheer overlwhelming and distraction as well.