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From the article: The government said Facebook intentionally created a hiring system in which it denied qualified U.S. workers a fair opportunity to learn abou

From the article: The government said Facebook intentionally created a hiring system in which it denied qualified U.S. workers a fair opportunity to learn about and apply for jobs that it instead sought to channel to temporary visa holders. - At the scale Facebook operates at and the number of employees they hire it makes a huge material advantage for them to hire cheaper foreigners for the same task. It is rational behavior. Foreigners are always cheaper for the same task at hand. The fine they paid is a fraction of their cost savings over the years. Many companies in Silicon Valley deliberately target cheaper foreigners than Americans. It is pure economics and FB has that built into their hiring model at scale. The only way to eliminate foreigners undercutting American salaries is to eliminate the foreign labor supply competition. That of course will not happen as all the big corporations promote all the alphabet soup of visas ranging from F1 to H1 to others. STEM jobs are the ones foreigners can compete in and depress the salaries of Americans in SV. The jobs that are not at as much risk are the ones that require command of the culture and language and the lay of the land like enterprise sales and marketing functions.

mataug 5y ago
> The only way to eliminate foreigners undercutting American salaries is to eliminate the foreign labor supply competition. The problem isn't foreign labor supply, its that the foreign nationals are forced to stick around at bad employers due to the way US immigration is tied to employment instead of credentials and skills. Comparing US and Canada, A foreign national in Canada who graduates from a STEM degree, and obtains a job, gets to apply for Permanent residency which is not tied to an employer. On the otherhand in the US the visa (H1B, L1, O1) are all tied to the employer, which means leaving a bad job is difficult to impossible without jeopardizing their legal status in the country. So FB has all incentives for hiring foreign nationals who have no choice but to stick around at a company that treats them poorly / underpays them. TL;DR the problem isn't the foreign national or the visas, its that the US immigration system ties visas to a single employer.
- hash872 5y ago
  >the US immigration system ties visas to a single employer While this is true for the L1 and one other (I believe J1), I don't understand why people believes this to be true for H1Bs. It's simply false- H1Bs can transfer employers, it just takes a couple of weeks and some paperwork, and thousands do it every year. I know a number of folks professionally who've done it without hassle, and I know a couple people in my personal life who've also transferred. There is a period when an employer has sponsored you for a Green Card that you probably can't switch, but after the EAD is issued you're free to transfer employers again. Basically, 'H1Bs are tied a single employer' is a widespread urban legend https://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-visa/h1b-visa-transfer/ https://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-visa/h1b-visa-transfer/ https://thevisaproject.com/experience/us/h1b-transfer-premium-processing/ https://thevisaproject.com/experience/us/h1b-transfer-premiu...
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    H-1B visas are tied to a specific employer. The fact that you can move between different employers who will individually agree to sponsor a H-1B position doesn't change that fact. This is fine when you're talking about moving between large companies with the apparatus to do that, but it does mean that H-1B holders have fewer opportunities with smaller employers or those who simply aren't willing to go through the paperwork.
  - nrmitchi 5y ago
    > H1Bs can transfer employers, it just takes a couple of weeks and some paperwork My understanding is that yes, this is technically true. However it's not a H1B holder telling the government "I'm taking this new job, FYI", as much as requesting that your transfer be approved. The risk that the transfer will not be, and you're stuck in limbo of returning to the position you just quit, does exist. For people on these statuses, any required interaction with USCIS can be anxiety inducing. While it may not technically be tied to a single employer, it's not fair to say that holders have the same flexibility to switch jobs as permanent residents/citizens.
    - 988747 5y ago
      Yes, US immigration system is a mess. I considered emigrating there once, but I would never agree to the kind of slavery that comes with H-1B visa or similar. Last few years, I've been submitting my application for Green Card lottery, because winning it is pretty much the only way of emigrating that doesn't suck, despite small chances of being selected.
firstfewshells 5y ago
I think you're living in a bubble if you still believe foreigners working at FAANG are underpaid compared to the native population. You are paid as per your level.
laurencerowe 5y ago
> At the scale Facebook operates at and the number of employees they hire it makes a huge material advantage for them to hire cheaper foreigners for the same task. It is rational behavior. Foreigners are always cheaper for the same task at hand. In this case though the foreign workers are getting green cards that make it much easier for them to work somewhere else. > The only way to eliminate foreigners undercutting American salaries is to eliminate the foreign labor supply competition. Isn't this the 'lump of labor' fallacy? Immigration also creates demand in the countries immigrants move to. The evidence seems to be fairly clear that it doesn't depress wages on average: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-immigration-doesnt-reduce-wages https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-immigration-doesnt-red... > STEM jobs are the ones foreigners can compete in and depress the salaries of Americans in SV. The jobs that are not at as much risk are the ones that require command of the culture and language and the lay of the land like enterprise sales and marketing functions. Yet it's these same SV engineering jobs that have seen enormous wage increases over the past decade. I do think there is potential for restrictive immigration schemes to depress wages by making it hard for people on those schemes to change jobs. That was certainly my experience on a cap-exempt academic H1B where I was ineligible to transfer to a commercial employer as cap-subject H1B employees are allowed to do. The solution to that is to make sure such immigrants get green cards relatively quickly so they can't be exploited by employers.

mataug 5y ago

> The only way to eliminate foreigners undercutting American salaries is to eliminate the foreign labor supply competition. The problem isn't foreign labor supply, its that the foreign nationals are forced to stick around at bad employers due to the way US immigration is tied to employment instead of credentials and skills. Comparing US and Canada, A foreign national in Canada who graduates from a STEM degree, and obtains a job, gets to apply for Permanent residency which is not tied to an employer. On the otherhand in the US the visa (H1B, L1, O1) are all tied to the employer, which means leaving a bad job is difficult to impossible without jeopardizing their legal status in the country. So FB has all incentives for hiring foreign nationals who have no choice but to stick around at a company that treats them poorly / underpays them. TL;DR the problem isn't the foreign national or the visas, its that the US immigration system ties visas to a single employer.

hash872 5y ago
>the US immigration system ties visas to a single employer While this is true for the L1 and one other (I believe J1), I don't understand why people believes this to be true for H1Bs. It's simply false- H1Bs can transfer employers, it just takes a couple of weeks and some paperwork, and thousands do it every year. I know a number of folks professionally who've done it without hassle, and I know a couple people in my personal life who've also transferred. There is a period when an employer has sponsored you for a Green Card that you probably can't switch, but after the EAD is issued you're free to transfer employers again. Basically, 'H1Bs are tied a single employer' is a widespread urban legend https://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-visa/h1b-visa-transfer/ https://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-visa/h1b-visa-transfer/ https://thevisaproject.com/experience/us/h1b-transfer-premium-processing/ https://thevisaproject.com/experience/us/h1b-transfer-premiu...
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  H-1B visas are tied to a specific employer. The fact that you can move between different employers who will individually agree to sponsor a H-1B position doesn't change that fact. This is fine when you're talking about moving between large companies with the apparatus to do that, but it does mean that H-1B holders have fewer opportunities with smaller employers or those who simply aren't willing to go through the paperwork.
- nrmitchi 5y ago
  > H1Bs can transfer employers, it just takes a couple of weeks and some paperwork My understanding is that yes, this is technically true. However it's not a H1B holder telling the government "I'm taking this new job, FYI", as much as requesting that your transfer be approved. The risk that the transfer will not be, and you're stuck in limbo of returning to the position you just quit, does exist. For people on these statuses, any required interaction with USCIS can be anxiety inducing. While it may not technically be tied to a single employer, it's not fair to say that holders have the same flexibility to switch jobs as permanent residents/citizens.
  - 988747 5y ago
    Yes, US immigration system is a mess. I considered emigrating there once, but I would never agree to the kind of slavery that comes with H-1B visa or similar. Last few years, I've been submitting my application for Green Card lottery, because winning it is pretty much the only way of emigrating that doesn't suck, despite small chances of being selected.

firstfewshells 5y ago

I think you're living in a bubble if you still believe foreigners working at FAANG are underpaid compared to the native population. You are paid as per your level.

laurencerowe 5y ago

> At the scale Facebook operates at and the number of employees they hire it makes a huge material advantage for them to hire cheaper foreigners for the same task. It is rational behavior. Foreigners are always cheaper for the same task at hand. In this case though the foreign workers are getting green cards that make it much easier for them to work somewhere else. > The only way to eliminate foreigners undercutting American salaries is to eliminate the foreign labor supply competition. Isn't this the 'lump of labor' fallacy? Immigration also creates demand in the countries immigrants move to. The evidence seems to be fairly clear that it doesn't depress wages on average: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-immigration-doesnt-reduce-wages https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-immigration-doesnt-red... > STEM jobs are the ones foreigners can compete in and depress the salaries of Americans in SV. The jobs that are not at as much risk are the ones that require command of the culture and language and the lay of the land like enterprise sales and marketing functions. Yet it's these same SV engineering jobs that have seen enormous wage increases over the past decade. I do think there is potential for restrictive immigration schemes to depress wages by making it hard for people on those schemes to change jobs. That was certainly my experience on a cap-exempt academic H1B where I was ineligible to transfer to a commercial employer as cap-subject H1B employees are allowed to do. The solution to that is to make sure such immigrants get green cards relatively quickly so they can't be exploited by employers.