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Museum Starts OnlyFans Account After Its TikTok Is Banned for Posting Nudes
- 1cvmask 5y agoTik Tok was probably just enforcing its anti nudity policies. Pubic hair is for example banned in Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_Japan
- happytoexplain 5y agoIs this in question? I'm confused by your use of the word "just".
- standardUser 5y agoFemale nipples will be un-banned in the United States in our lifetime. It's quite possibly the most indefensible of all of the indefensible standards we cling to on sex and nudity. The fact that so many people still can't see the writing on the wall truly baffles me.
- romwell 5y agoAdmirable optimism.
- dehrmann 5y agoIt's apparently way more legal than I realized: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom_in_the_United_State... (potentially NFSW)
- m-watson 5y agoYea there is an annual march around the country (in legal states) with it as well. I think there is an organization out there that actually tries to help defend anyone who is actually cited too.
- intrasight 5y agoI happened to be present on June 21, 1986, in Cobb's Hill Park, when the Topless Seven took off their shirts, and in doing so made topless legal in NYC. https://apnews.com/article/6b3fb44d2d761ecf9516ba2e8a32e359 https://apnews.com/article/6b3fb44d2d761ecf9516ba2e8a32e359
- munk-a 5y agoIn my previous home of Vermont it's long been the case that nudity is not at all illegal - it's illegal to act lewdy in public and removing your clothing is considered a lewd action. As such walking into public naked is generally naked, but only generally, in a lot of cases folks can still make a case for your arrest if you're not really careful about the company you keep.
- loeg 5y agoIt's a little absurd to claim that nudity isn't illegal, but taking your clothes off is (illegally) lewd. Vermont has effectively kept nudity illegal without having it explicitly on the books.
- munk-a 5y agoOh - the loophole is that you can walk out your front door naked. And taking your clothes off isn't illegal in any stated law, it's just been generally found to be a lewd action when challenged, while merely existing naked hasn't been.
- vidarh 5y agoIt's similar in the UK, in that it's deeply contextual. Walking around naked somewhere where people are likely to take offence is dicey, but the more expected it is to encounter someone naked somewhere, the safer you are. The specific things that makes it a crime would be intent to "cause distress, alarm or outrage", or if you are "outraging public decency". And so e.g. a nudist beach generally does not need any particular permissions on the basis that merely signing it properly, or the place being generally known to be somewhere where people are naked makes it hard to argue it causes distress, alarm or outrage to come across someone naked there. Of course where exactly the line goes on that is constantly changing and tricky to judge. E.g. someone stood naked on a plint in Trafalgar Square in the middle of London and police refused to order him to cover up [1] but another naked man on the plint was told to cover up another time. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8235959.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8235959.stm
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- vmception 5y agoMany people in the 1890s US thought the same thing. This might seem like a linear form of progressiveness, based on the last half century, but it isn't. Just ebbs and flows. Typically what's occurred is a period of uncertainty allows for strict and religious sects to be emboldened and revive compliance with their ideals as they offer an ephemeral form of certainty, dominant Abrahamic religions include very gendered roles and control. (Other belief system's populations die out due to lack of breeders, so it is just survivorship bias.)
- xeromal 5y agoYup, "morals" are a pendulum probably from a result of children doing the opposite of what their elders did.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago> (Other belief system's populations die out due to lack of breeders, so it is just survivorship bias.) Given the pushes for surrogacy laws and reproductive rights, I don't think this assessment is accurate.
- vmception 5y agoI’m all for our technological and public policy shaping the future future, I am making a reference to what has happened over and over again.
- standardUser 5y agoSex and gender issues in the modern era move only in one direction when looked at over longer periods of time. Progress isn't strictly linear, but that doesn't mean we should assume it swings wildly back and forth. It doesn't.
- animal_spirits 5y agoCan we claim that the "modern" era has lasted a long period of time?
- 5y ago
- handrous 5y agoAd buyers and credit card processors are the main regulators of the Web. It's not the government saying TikTok and others can't host artistic nudes, AFAIK.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- standardUser 5y agoIt's entirely cultural, and both government and private enterprise will follow the culture, just as they have for the last 100 years.
- thrashh 5y agoAnd people too!
- munk-a 5y agoBut I think it's reasonable to assume that bi-gender toplessness will become acceptable even to those entities in the next thirty years or so. I certainly hope that'll be the case since it'll result in a lot less grief for society at large.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y agoAlready legal in NY (aside from television).
- kibwen 5y agoAs far as being in public is concerned, it's actually legal in a majority of states (with some curious outliers where it's illegal: Florida, Nevada, Massachusetts...).
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago>Florida, Nevada, Massachusetts...). I don't see anything odd about those exceptions. >Florida Old people vote. >Nevada unenforced unless you're making a complete ass out of yourself like every other nuisance law there. >Massachusetts puritanical standards of behavior run deep.
- paxys 5y agoThe challenge is social acceptability rather than legality. Being topless in public is already legal in most of the US. It's our culture which hasn't budged since the 60s (and in fact has regressed in a lot of ways).
- standardUser 5y agoI'd argue it has more than budged, it's moved dramatically. I know several people who make amateur porn. These are professionals in tech! I know an ever-growing number of people who are in non-monogamous relationships, who defy traditional gender roles, who embrace alternative/kinky sexuality and who in some cases are raising their children in homes accepting of all of these things. Cultural norms were vastly more oppressive and restrictive in the 1960's. And in the 1990's.
- pugets 5y agoMy questions: What about the children? Are we ready as a society for it to be legal for someone to possess an image of a topless 14-year-old girl on their computer? Should the law view child toplessness differently than adult toplessness? And if so, then how would we be making be a step towards the desexualization of the nipple?
- causi 5y agoSort of a social standards issue though, isn't it? Here a topless teenager is scandalous but in other places that standard includes teens without hijabs or teens in tight-fitting clothes or even teens not in long dresses. I suspect this is only a thorny issue because it requires a transition period. Once people get used to it it will stop being so over-sexualized.
- tsimionescu 5y agoWould a sexual pose of a 14 year old girl with her nipples covered by some glitter be more acceptable in some way or less sexual? Would an identical pose of a 14 year old boy be less exploitative?
- vidarh 5y agoIn fact, in the UK and some other places what is illegal is "indecent" images of someone under 18, not nudity or sexual content in and of itself. So the sexual pose would likely be a problem whether or not the nipples are exposed. In the UK for the lowest severity images the context the pictures are found in also matters - even a picture that is ok in a family album (e.g. an innocent picture of a child in the bath) would not be ok if found in a collection of pictures clearly intended for sexual gratification.
- darkarmani 5y ago> Are we ready as a society for it to be legal for someone to possess an image of a topless 14-year-old girl on their computer? Was the girl harmed? Was her privacy violated? Otherwise, it is the same as for anyone else.
- standardUser 5y ago
- ravenstine 5y agoI'm not necessarily disagreeing, but is that really the answer? Should we not also ask the question of why exposed male nipples are acceptable? If male nipples are not considered sexual but female nipples are, and we permit exposed female nipples in public, then does it also follow that the male penis be allowed to be exposed in public? Do "free the nipple" folks feel the same way about that, and why?
- SteveNuts 5y agoBreasts are secondary sex characteristics, genitalia is not, genitals are purely sexual.
- semi-extrinsic 5y agoI don't know about you, but personally I also use my genitals for other things than sex.
- ravenstine 5y agoThat begs a question, though. What makes a primary sexual characteristic objectionable over a secondary one? I don't think anyone gets aroused (or disgusted) by either genitalia or breasts because there's a conscious awareness that they have something to do with biological reproduction.
- notyourwork 5y agoJumping from nipples to penis seems like a bit of a stretch, don't it?
- rcoveson 5y agoDepends on how you're positioned.
- mediaman 5y agoI'm sorry, but linking this to genitalia doesn't make any sense. Society prohibits the exposure of genitalia for both men and women. Although it's certainly up for debate whether that's reasonable or not, the treatment is equal. And at least genitalia perform a sexual function, so if the principle is that we shouldn't show organs with a primarily sexual function, for whatever reason, at least there's some sort of principle at work. The issue of the nipple is completely separate and indefensible. The nipple has very similar appearance for both sexes; it performs no sexual function, and the one function it does have for women is something that has no obvious moral basis to prohibit. To wit: adults eating in public is fine, children eating in public is fine, but, for some reason, a baby eating in its natural form in public is not fine. I agree with OP. It's nuts and we will likely see this view relaxed over time, though I have no idea how long of a time horizon.
- malermeister 5y agoOne of the most insane aspects of American culture to me as a foreigner is how okay violence is culturally, and how taboo even nudity (not even sex) is. One of them celebrates death and destruction, the other one is about life and creation. Seems to me like the priorities are the wrong way round.
- ksdale 5y agoThat's insane to me as an American as well! I have 4 kids, and I've been absolutely appalled at how much violence there is in stuff that's directed at kids compared to how much people try to shield them from nudity. Everyone just takes it for granted that the average children's story is going to have someone fighting someone. I've had that exact conversation with someone. "I don't mind if they see nudity." "Aren't you worried about how it will affect them?" "I dunno, how many people died in the last Marvel movie? We're not worried about them becoming mass murderers. And besides, if the consequence of them seeing nudity is ... sex? That's a thing they'll be able to do when they're old enough, as opposed to murder, which will never be right in any circumstance..."
- NotSammyHagar 5y agoI agree with you, also as an american. I want to blame 'our' fear of nudity and sex on the Puritans and our puritanical (ha) national religious views. Love of violence or acceptance of violence feels like the reciprocal impact of fear of sex. The idea I have is our fear of sex lead to US film makers searching for something that would get people's attention, and violence turned out to be it. One could also make a vague claim about guns being a more natural part of our independent fantastical claims of living on the frontier (needed to kill the previous inhabitants during our genocidal takeovers). But I think it was the infamous Hayes Code (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code) in the 1930s, where we moved from a time without as much cinematic censorship (that allowed both violence and sex & nudity at times) into a time that was much more anti-sex in the media. The anti-sex was already there, but the Hayes code gave anti-sex conservatives much more power to control mass media for a while.
- humpday69 5y agoWhen do the nipples of a man transitioning to a woman become unacceptable?
- kibwen 5y agoYears and years ago I remember seeing a program that was broadcast on some dry, educational TV channel that was showing someone undergoing transitional surgery, and you could just imagine the censors sweating profusely as they decided the arbitrary point at which the nipple blur kicked in.
- standardUser 5y agoThere's great images I see on Instagram where someone will photoshop a male nipple on top of a female breast to show the absurdity of the whole thing. Someone who is transitioning is another great example, as is the occasional voluptuous man boob.
- mywittyname 5y agoI actually expect that the opposite might happen and that men going topless in public will be as women are now. Maybe not illegal, but less socially acceptable. The reason I say that is I've noticed a lot of men (not boys) swimming in shirts, and I've also witnessed people telling men to put on a shirt (or otherwise complaining about how gross it is) at outdoor gatherings, whereas, this used to be extremely common. Maybe it is different in California or Florida.
- anonAndOn 5y agoAmerican men also used to be thinner. Fat shaming, perhaps?
- standardUser 5y agoAnecdotally, I live in a neighborhood of Manhattan know for starting national and global fashion trends, and the trend has absolutely been towards far more skin for all genders and body types. In fact, heavier people showing more skin has been one of the most obvious trends. That and the shrinking number of women who wear bras.
- OJFord 5y agoObviously this is highly culturally variable - in the UK I wouldn't say it has much of a 'socially acceptable' starting point, it's certainly a marker of social class. Of course, it might help that we don't have that many days a year when anyone would want to. (Beach or swimming pool is another matter - I can't echo your experience there, but it is quite a while since I've been to either, so can't really comment I suppose. Above I mean 'in public' in general, shopping or walking down the street etc.)
- montagg 5y agoHave you seen the way the wind is blowing in the US? We are closer to The Handmaid’s Tale than anything like what you’re describing. Progress is never inevitable.
- standardUser 5y agoI don't expect the conservative hinterland to suddenly start guiding American cultural evolution, no matter how big of an asshole they barely elected one time. Progress will continue to come from the cities, where the wind continues to blow in a favorable direction.
- darepublic 5y agoThe old testament says to stone the adulteress. Violence ok, sex not ok
- savant_penguin 5y agoIf onlyfans execs change their minds again the museum will be kicked out by posting nudes again What a time to be alive
- trutannus 5y agoThis is how we end up in a world where cutting edge porn platforms are run by European art museums.
- siva7 5y agoEurope is home of cutting edge porn platforms, so it makes sense
- toomuchtodo 5y agoProbably the best stewards for such a platform if we’re being honest.
- trutannus 5y agoI was thinking the same thing. Plus they would have the backing of a state actor, so compliance, and ethics issues would be non-existent.
- Arrath 5y agoWell, as long as it isn't being run by the BBC.
- savant_penguin 5y agoOr you could get TSA
- mschuster91 5y ago> Plus they would have the backing of a state actor, so compliance, and ethics issues would be non-existent. Don't tell that to the German "Landesanstalt für neue Medien" in NRW... for those OOTL: this complete bunch of incompetent reactionaries wants to introduce DNS bans against Pornhub (https://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/Wie-die-Landesmedienanstalt-NRW-Porno-Angebote-aus-dem-Web-fegen-will-4723581.html https://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/Wie-die-Landesmedienanstalt-...).
- 1_player 5y agoIt's been since the fall of the Roman Empire that we've been waiting for sexual freedom and appreciation of the body in its entirety, genitalia included, to be acceptable again. Two thousand years have passed, any day now...
- dahfizz 5y agoWhat "sexual freedom" do you not have today?
- ben_w 5y agoThat rather depends where you live, though given how long the Roman Empire[0] was around for I must assume Roman sexual laws and social prohibitions varied a lot too. [0] never mind the Republic, and even just counting the Western empire
- 1_player 5y agoI do not mean personal, I mean cultural, especially in the West. Nipples are more taboo than gore, sex work is not accepted openly as any other profession, you'd probably be a little weirded out if I had a miniature of Priapus with his remarkable erection [1] in my house. Of course, times have changes since the Romans, but it'd be quite disingenuous to say that we are as sexually free and disinhibited as they were. We're still recovering from the Middle Ages censorship and Christian mortification of the flesh. I'd argue we've reverted back from whatever sexual freedom the Hippies in the 60s were striving for to a more conservative society on that aspect. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priapus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priapus
- dang 5y agoVienna museums open adult-only OnlyFans account to display nudes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28887142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28887142 - Oct 2021 (147 comments)