8 ms·

We had _just_ settled the emacs vs vi argument when this starts ... I guess debian/ Ubuntu folks will choose bash, osx people will continue using zsh and the o

by zibzab 5y ago

We had _just_ settled the emacs vs vi argument when this starts ... I guess debian/ Ubuntu folks will choose bash, osx people will continue using zsh and the openbsd users will keep using that vanilla sh because of the vintage feel. On a more serious note: I can't see my commands in manjaro thanks to all the bells and whistles. For some reason that situation reminds me of spacemacs users.

todd8 5y ago
> We had _just_ settled the emacs vs vi argument when this starts ... We did? That’s news to me!
- zibzab 5y ago
  Yes, we are all switching to vscode.
  - mhd 5y ago
    People who switch to vscode probably also switch to fish anyway. Hmm, in this false analogy game, what editor is aligned with korn shell? xemacs?
    - quicklime 5y ago
      nvi OpenBSD (as well as the others?) come with pdksh and nvi out of the box.
      - mhd 5y ago
        Probably closer to vile or elvis if we're talking proper ksh93.
    - zamalek 5y ago
      > probably also switch to fish anyway. I feel attacked. In all seriousness: so long as you have a POSIX shell available (and set as default), you don't have to use a POSIX shell. I rarely do anything with fish syntax because I mostly use it for the REPL experience.
    - tharne 5y ago
      > Hmm, in this false analogy game, what editor is aligned with korn shell? vi (not vim), preferably running on OpenBSD :)
  - forty 5y ago
    I switched from vscode to (doom) emacs. I don't know how it is now, but the vi-like key bindings of vscode were pretty bad at the time.
    - ogogmad 5y ago
      It takes a while for the time spent learning emacs/vi to amortise itself. You need to learn the key bindings, the ad hoc scripting language, and the substantial API. And throughout it all, there's the constant temptation to switch to something easier like vscode. I tried learning to use Org-mode as a Markdown replacement over Doom Emacs. At some point, I switched back to vscode+Markdown and it felt like a breeze. I'm not a SWE, so the payoff would've probably taken too long to happen. I also tried using the Maxima mode for Emacs as an interactive CAS. The only thing I got was Latex-formatted output and the same Emacs-like key bindings that you get in any terminal emulator. No auto-suggestion/Intellisense to help you navigate and avoid learning the API, so I wasn't overly impressed.
      - forty 5y ago
        I have been using vi like key bindings for the past 15 years, so learning to do differently would be a significant investment I'm not willing to make, even moreso that the benefits would not be clear ;) But yes, I'm 100% convinced that it's not for everyone, and depends a lot of the quality of the integration/mode of your specific use case.
    - dangerbird2 5y ago
      I hate to admit I'm in that camp. Used emacs because it has great support for editing over ssh. When vscode came out with remote connections for ssh and wsl, I switched over. Emacs is a great operating system-I mean editor, but it's pretty hard to extend it to have the feature set of newer editors while maintaining reasonable performance.
    - RealStickman_ 5y ago
      Vim bindings are pretty good if you use the nvim plugin in vs code. It's not emulating (n)vim, you need to have the actual nvim installed and it will use that to provide the keyvindings. I also switched from vs code to doom emacs though, just because I wanted to.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    I was simply going to do: $ cat > file.c <<EOM
    - folmar 5y ago
      Just use ^D to end, saves you writing here `<<EOM` and EOM there.
  - crossroadsguy 5y ago
    A decade ago after noticing such a conversation I'd have thought about and explored about which was better and which one to try and switch to; at least for few weeks until the novelty wore off. I am older now (not sure smarter or lazier as well or both) and at this point I couldn't care less. As an Android developer I am essentially forced to use Android Studio - a rebranded IntelliJ and a shameless resource eater - it does the work and employer pays for better Macs every now and then, so it's good.
  - rudian 5y ago
    Who needs vscode when you can just hand write it and scan it?
    - todd8 5y ago
      I know this is a joke, but I actually used to handwrite all of my programs. Back then, I would then keypunch them the next time I was on campus and could access a keypunch machine. Writing even a modest 1000 line program was quite a chore because you'd have to carry around a box of 1000 cards and keep them from getting mixed up. Here's a picture of a full 2000 card box[1]; notice how we used to write diagonal lines on the edges of the cards to help put them in order after spilling the box on the floor! See [2] for a picture of the first kind of keypunch machine I ever used, the IBM 026. The subsequent model, the IBM 029, was much better. Of course the turnaround time wasn't measured in seconds back then. Once, I was given an assignment that required writing a program in IBM 360 assembler, it was the first time I ever had to write assembly language. With the aid of IBM's excellent manual, IBM 360 Principles of Operation, I hand wrote this program, went to campus to keypunch the program, and turned it in for one of the seven scheduled overnight submissions we were allowed. After around the fifth attempt I was starting the think that I wouldn't get credit for this assignment; miraculously, on my seventh and last submission the program finally worked. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/PunchCardDecks.agr.jpg/540px-PunchCardDecks.agr.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Pu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keypunching_at_Texas_A&M2.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keypunching_at_Texas_A&M2...
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    On my case, it is more like being dragged into VSCode than actually switching to it by choice, specially when Microsoft makes some stuff available as VSCode plugins only (e.g. Powershell and ARM templates editing).
    - Steltek 5y ago
      The Remote Development extensions being locked away is the kicker for me. Everything else I've been able to find on alternative "markets" (can we just call them repositories? we're all developers here...)
  - artichokeheart 5y ago
    vscodium
- bregma 5y ago
  And still there are emacs users.
Hamuko 5y ago
I'm just gonna use fish because I can't be bothered to setup zsh.
- cutthegrass2 5y ago
  zsh can be a real pain to setup if you want a "performant" git status in your prompt. vcs_info is just too damn slow. I prefer minimal customisation and so tend to stay away from heavy plugins like ohmyzsh, though I have friends who use it and really like it.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    https://github.com/romkatv/powerlevel10k https://github.com/romkatv/powerlevel10k claims to do this (and other things) while remaining extremely fast (apparently the dev was aiming to keep it below the threshold of human perception; not 100% sure that extends to all features or not)
    - rgoulter 5y ago
      For those not using zsh, https://starship.rs/ https://starship.rs/ is an excellent shell prompt which works with several shells. Using it is very high value-for-effort.
  - diroussel 5y ago
    Use https://starship.rs/ https://starship.rs/ and get a performant prompt that stays the same when you switch between bash, zsh and fish.
- zer 5y ago
  Fish is really great for an interactive shell, I love using it. Not so great when it comes to scripting though. For example I think there's still no way to easily exit a script on error except to manually check exit codes. However I haven't tried writing scripts in zsh yet, just sh/bash.
  - 5y ago
pizza234 5y ago
> I guess debian/ Ubuntu folks will choose bash, osx people will continue using zsh and the openbsd users will keep using that vanilla sh because of the vintage feel. I believe that using zsh means, for the vast majority of users, using just a small subset of functionality that gives a better UX when compared to Bash. Both me and my colleagues use zsh this way, and the times I've tried to figure out more advanced functionalities, it wasn't as simple as I expected. I've read a few points of the article, and although they make sense as improvements, they apply mostly to the scripts domain. I don't recommend writing zsh scripts, because they're subtly different from the (unfortunately) standard that is Bash, besides not being supported (at least until a short time ago) by (the necessary) Shellcheck. If one wants a better experience for scripting, they're better off with a non-shell scripting language altogether (ie. Python).
- csdvrx 5y ago
  > I believe that using zsh means, for the vast majority of users, using just a small subset of functionality that gives a better UX when compared to Bash. What about adding only these functionalities you may care about? When I tried zsh, what I liked was the history search. Like you, everything else "wasn't as simple as I expected". So I fixed my bash to add and expand what I had enjoyed! Check https://github.com/csdvrx/bash-timestamping-sqlite https://github.com/csdvrx/bash-timestamping-sqlite : - stores everything into a sqlite database so separate bash in separate terminals can access each other history on the go (without waiting for the session to end and the history being committed), - add extra details to the history like when the command started, stopped, which with return code, in which directory (more on what that enables below), - for accessing the history, uses fzy for fuzzy finding, (the one thing I mostly enjoyed in zsh, not zsh but fzy!!) - provides 2 separate history search contexts: either global (ctrl-t) or "this directory only" (ctrl-r), with extra goodies like excluding commands with a non-zero return error code thanks to the extra things saved I included a few examples of the SQL queries you can run.
  - scns 5y ago
    Looks awesome. Thank you for building it.
forgotpwd16 5y ago
Shell wars are as old as editor wars.
pjmlp 5y ago
Briging Korn shell into the party.
- srvmshr 5y ago
  csh and tcsh dialled in.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    The more the merrier.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by zibzab 5y ago

todd8 5y ago

> We had _just_ settled the emacs vs vi argument when this starts ... We did? That’s news to me!

zibzab 5y ago
Yes, we are all switching to vscode.
- mhd 5y ago
  People who switch to vscode probably also switch to fish anyway. Hmm, in this false analogy game, what editor is aligned with korn shell? xemacs?
  - quicklime 5y ago
    nvi OpenBSD (as well as the others?) come with pdksh and nvi out of the box.
    - mhd 5y ago
      Probably closer to vile or elvis if we're talking proper ksh93.
  - zamalek 5y ago
    > probably also switch to fish anyway. I feel attacked. In all seriousness: so long as you have a POSIX shell available (and set as default), you don't have to use a POSIX shell. I rarely do anything with fish syntax because I mostly use it for the REPL experience.
  - tharne 5y ago
    > Hmm, in this false analogy game, what editor is aligned with korn shell? vi (not vim), preferably running on OpenBSD :)
- forty 5y ago
  I switched from vscode to (doom) emacs. I don't know how it is now, but the vi-like key bindings of vscode were pretty bad at the time.
  - ogogmad 5y ago
    It takes a while for the time spent learning emacs/vi to amortise itself. You need to learn the key bindings, the ad hoc scripting language, and the substantial API. And throughout it all, there's the constant temptation to switch to something easier like vscode. I tried learning to use Org-mode as a Markdown replacement over Doom Emacs. At some point, I switched back to vscode+Markdown and it felt like a breeze. I'm not a SWE, so the payoff would've probably taken too long to happen. I also tried using the Maxima mode for Emacs as an interactive CAS. The only thing I got was Latex-formatted output and the same Emacs-like key bindings that you get in any terminal emulator. No auto-suggestion/Intellisense to help you navigate and avoid learning the API, so I wasn't overly impressed.
    - forty 5y ago
      I have been using vi like key bindings for the past 15 years, so learning to do differently would be a significant investment I'm not willing to make, even moreso that the benefits would not be clear ;) But yes, I'm 100% convinced that it's not for everyone, and depends a lot of the quality of the integration/mode of your specific use case.
  - dangerbird2 5y ago
    I hate to admit I'm in that camp. Used emacs because it has great support for editing over ssh. When vscode came out with remote connections for ssh and wsl, I switched over. Emacs is a great operating system-I mean editor, but it's pretty hard to extend it to have the feature set of newer editors while maintaining reasonable performance.
  - RealStickman_ 5y ago
    Vim bindings are pretty good if you use the nvim plugin in vs code. It's not emulating (n)vim, you need to have the actual nvim installed and it will use that to provide the keyvindings. I also switched from vs code to doom emacs though, just because I wanted to.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  I was simply going to do: $ cat > file.c <<EOM
  - folmar 5y ago
    Just use ^D to end, saves you writing here `<<EOM` and EOM there.
- crossroadsguy 5y ago
  A decade ago after noticing such a conversation I'd have thought about and explored about which was better and which one to try and switch to; at least for few weeks until the novelty wore off. I am older now (not sure smarter or lazier as well or both) and at this point I couldn't care less. As an Android developer I am essentially forced to use Android Studio - a rebranded IntelliJ and a shameless resource eater - it does the work and employer pays for better Macs every now and then, so it's good.
- rudian 5y ago
  Who needs vscode when you can just hand write it and scan it?
  - todd8 5y ago
    I know this is a joke, but I actually used to handwrite all of my programs. Back then, I would then keypunch them the next time I was on campus and could access a keypunch machine. Writing even a modest 1000 line program was quite a chore because you'd have to carry around a box of 1000 cards and keep them from getting mixed up. Here's a picture of a full 2000 card box[1]; notice how we used to write diagonal lines on the edges of the cards to help put them in order after spilling the box on the floor! See [2] for a picture of the first kind of keypunch machine I ever used, the IBM 026. The subsequent model, the IBM 029, was much better. Of course the turnaround time wasn't measured in seconds back then. Once, I was given an assignment that required writing a program in IBM 360 assembler, it was the first time I ever had to write assembly language. With the aid of IBM's excellent manual, IBM 360 Principles of Operation, I hand wrote this program, went to campus to keypunch the program, and turned it in for one of the seven scheduled overnight submissions we were allowed. After around the fifth attempt I was starting the think that I wouldn't get credit for this assignment; miraculously, on my seventh and last submission the program finally worked. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/PunchCardDecks.agr.jpg/540px-PunchCardDecks.agr.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Pu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keypunching_at_Texas_A&M2.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keypunching_at_Texas_A&M2...
- pjmlp 5y ago
  On my case, it is more like being dragged into VSCode than actually switching to it by choice, specially when Microsoft makes some stuff available as VSCode plugins only (e.g. Powershell and ARM templates editing).
  - Steltek 5y ago
    The Remote Development extensions being locked away is the kicker for me. Everything else I've been able to find on alternative "markets" (can we just call them repositories? we're all developers here...)
- artichokeheart 5y ago
  vscodium
bregma 5y ago
And still there are emacs users.

Hamuko 5y ago

I'm just gonna use fish because I can't be bothered to setup zsh.

cutthegrass2 5y ago
zsh can be a real pain to setup if you want a "performant" git status in your prompt. vcs_info is just too damn slow. I prefer minimal customisation and so tend to stay away from heavy plugins like ohmyzsh, though I have friends who use it and really like it.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  https://github.com/romkatv/powerlevel10k https://github.com/romkatv/powerlevel10k claims to do this (and other things) while remaining extremely fast (apparently the dev was aiming to keep it below the threshold of human perception; not 100% sure that extends to all features or not)
  - rgoulter 5y ago
    For those not using zsh, https://starship.rs/ https://starship.rs/ is an excellent shell prompt which works with several shells. Using it is very high value-for-effort.
- diroussel 5y ago
  Use https://starship.rs/ https://starship.rs/ and get a performant prompt that stays the same when you switch between bash, zsh and fish.
zer 5y ago
Fish is really great for an interactive shell, I love using it. Not so great when it comes to scripting though. For example I think there's still no way to easily exit a script on error except to manually check exit codes. However I haven't tried writing scripts in zsh yet, just sh/bash.
- 5y ago

pizza234 5y ago

> I guess debian/ Ubuntu folks will choose bash, osx people will continue using zsh and the openbsd users will keep using that vanilla sh because of the vintage feel. I believe that using zsh means, for the vast majority of users, using just a small subset of functionality that gives a better UX when compared to Bash. Both me and my colleagues use zsh this way, and the times I've tried to figure out more advanced functionalities, it wasn't as simple as I expected. I've read a few points of the article, and although they make sense as improvements, they apply mostly to the scripts domain. I don't recommend writing zsh scripts, because they're subtly different from the (unfortunately) standard that is Bash, besides not being supported (at least until a short time ago) by (the necessary) Shellcheck. If one wants a better experience for scripting, they're better off with a non-shell scripting language altogether (ie. Python).

csdvrx 5y ago
> I believe that using zsh means, for the vast majority of users, using just a small subset of functionality that gives a better UX when compared to Bash. What about adding only these functionalities you may care about? When I tried zsh, what I liked was the history search. Like you, everything else "wasn't as simple as I expected". So I fixed my bash to add and expand what I had enjoyed! Check https://github.com/csdvrx/bash-timestamping-sqlite https://github.com/csdvrx/bash-timestamping-sqlite : - stores everything into a sqlite database so separate bash in separate terminals can access each other history on the go (without waiting for the session to end and the history being committed), - add extra details to the history like when the command started, stopped, which with return code, in which directory (more on what that enables below), - for accessing the history, uses fzy for fuzzy finding, (the one thing I mostly enjoyed in zsh, not zsh but fzy!!) - provides 2 separate history search contexts: either global (ctrl-t) or "this directory only" (ctrl-r), with extra goodies like excluding commands with a non-zero return error code thanks to the extra things saved I included a few examples of the SQL queries you can run.
- scns 5y ago
  Looks awesome. Thank you for building it.

forgotpwd16 5y ago

Shell wars are as old as editor wars.

pjmlp 5y ago

Briging Korn shell into the party.

srvmshr 5y ago
csh and tcsh dialled in.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  The more the merrier.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]