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If a woman is poor, struggling to survive or trying to give a child a decent life in a society and economic system that is very sink or swim, do you consider it

If a woman is poor, struggling to survive or trying to give a child a decent life in a society and economic system that is very sink or swim, do you consider it "consent" if she agrees to have sex with you so she can pay the rent, or have a decent meal, or buy the drugs she got hooked on dealing with depression and alienation, sold to her by a predatory drug dealer?

mbrodersen 5y ago
Yes of course. She has the option to do it or not. A male in the same situation might not even have the option.
devoutsalsa 5y ago
We all do stuff we'd rather not do for money.
- kfprt 5y ago
  Is there no limit to what you would do for money?
  - devoutsalsa 5y ago
    Of course there's a limit, but... > If a woman is poor, struggling to survive or trying to give a child a decent life in a society and economic system that is very sink or swim, do you consider it "consent" if she agrees to have sex with you so she can pay the rent, or have a decent meal, or buy the drugs she got hooked on dealing with depression and alienation, sold to her by a predatory drug dealer? I give my boss consent to ask me to do stuff I'd rather not do. That's why they pay me. If I didn't get paid, I certainly wouldn't be doing things like attending Scrum meetings and fixing CSS bugs. People tend to treat sex work like it's some sort of demeaning thing that no one should have to endure. If I had to choose between 1 hour of entertaining sexually entertaining someone for $1200 or 100 hours @ $12/hour of dealing with a shit boss in a demeaning dead-end job, I choose the former. And I choose neither if I don't need the money at all.
    - naasking 5y ago
      > People tend to treat sex work like it's some sort of demeaning thing that no one should have to endure. I think this is exactly it. Many people can't imagine themselves having sex for money. Most people also can't imagine cutting into people as they do in surgery, but we don't ban surgery. The purported "difference" is that surgery helps people. Sure, and helping a disabled person experience human intimacy is not helping them? Another purported difference is that prostitution harms people where surgery does not. I think plastic surgery harms quite a few people, psychologically and physically. The real "problem" here is people's hang ups about sex.
      - mikevm 5y ago
        How the fsck is performing surgery analogous to being sexually penetrated by a stranger for money? > Sure, and helping a disabled person experience human intimacy is not helping them? First of all, it's all fake, there's no real intimacy there. Secondly, you make it sound like these whores take the job out of the goodness of their hearts. Having sex with cripples is the last thing on their mind... it's money first and foremost. Otherwise they'd just get a normal paying job like any other person who has self-dignity. > The real "problem" here is people's hang ups about sex. The real problem here is you misunderstanding human nature and attempting to normalize and rationalize something which clearly goes *against* human nature. Sex is not a commodity, selling sex for money is taboo and frowned upon in pretty much every society, even the so-called progressive ones that legalized prostitution. Since this stigma is universal to every society, there must be a psycho-biological reason for it, therefore prostitution is always going to be a niche, and never going to be "mainstreamed" ("My daughter is a prostitute!" said the proud mother).
        naasking 5y ago
        > How the fsck is performing surgery analogous to being sexually penetrated by a stranger for money? I just explained how. Read it again if you're not clear. > First of all, it's all fake, there's no real intimacy there. And you know this from first-hand experience I take it? > Secondly, you make it sound like these whores take the job out of the goodness of their hearts. Having sex with cripples is the last thing on their mind... it's money first and foremost. And I take it you work for your employer out of the goodness of your heart? No? So I guess the financial compensation must imply that you're not doing a good job. I mean, that is basically what you're saying. > The real problem here is you misunderstanding human nature and attempting to normalize and rationalize something which clearly goes against human nature. So what everyone agrees is "the oldest profession" is "against human nature". Haha, ok dude. > Sex is not a commodity, selling sex for money is taboo and frowned upon in pretty much every society No it's not. Some societies had accepted prostitution before they were colonized or conquered. > Since this stigma is universal to every society, there must be a psycho-biological reason for it Your pseudoscientific evolutionary justification is nonsense. The societies you're thinking of were colonized or conquered so there are obvious cultural reasons for shared taboos. And even if your psycho-biological nonsense had even one iota of truth to it, it's completely irrelevant. By parity of reasoning we should therefore enshrine religious or supernatural theology in government policy because every society believed in supernatural supreme beings of some kind. > therefore prostitution is always going to be a niche, and never going to be "mainstreamed" ("My daughter is a prostitute!" said the proud mother). Ok, so it'll stay a niche. What's the problem? No one is going to be proud that their daughter works at McDonald's either. That's not a justification for why it should be illegal.
rockbruno 5y ago
This is not a good take, what you described applies to every single person in the world with a job. The correct reason sex work is a complex subject is because it involves human trafficking.
- kfprt 5y ago
  And intimacy in a way few other workers experience.
  - naasking 5y ago
    If intimacy or attachment is a problem for you, then don't do that kind of sex work. I don't see how this is any different than other jobs. If I'm not physically strong, I'm not going to be a mover or a fire fighter.
strken 5y ago
Seems a bit inconsistent to throw desperate addicts/single mothers in jail if they steal car stereos for meth money/baby food, but blame their johns if they turn to sex work instead. Which is it?
- eevilspock 5y ago
  I did not make a comment on the issue of legality, and if you read my comment with an ounce of good faith reason and logic, you would never have put the words you just did into my mouth, and instead focus on what I actually said. I was commenting on the casualness and callousness with which he uses "consenting adults" without regard to the power imbalance as well as the statistics with regard to sex workers and their "freedom". Look at the attitude in the other replies: > At least a woman can take the easy way out and become a prostitute. A man has no such "luxury". Society does not pity weak men the way it pities weak women. > what you described applies to every single person in the world with a job. > We all do stuff we'd rather not do for money. And then there's the guy comparing strangers putting their penises into your mouth and vagina, always in fear of sexual assault, disease, degradation to "attending Scrum meetings and fixing CSS bugs." Even you, with "but blame their johns", ignoring any notion of exploitation of the desperate and vulnerable.
  - strken 5y ago
    My biggest problem here is that pretty much all working class labour has deep power imbalances and rampant systemic exploitation, but none of the discussion around it robs the labourer of quite as much agency as the discussion around prostitution. Very few people point to Amazon warehouse pickers and say the nature of the work is so obviously non-consensual it should be illegal, even if they're forced into it by impending homelessness or addiction. It irritates me when people who are making the best of the hand they're dealt get talked down to like they haven't made a choice, and thrown in jail because they're trying to put food on the table. Yeah, vulnerable people are prostituting themselves because the alternative is worse, but how does making prostitution illegal fix the problem? It's a dumb knee-jerk reaction that makes everything worse - prostitution is driven underground, governments can't ask about working conditions or prosecute bad johns, and vulnerable people end up in jail.
npteljes 5y ago
How does prostitution being illegal improve this situation?
- eevilspock 5y ago
  i did not comment on legality. See my other reply.
mikevm 5y ago
At least a woman can take the easy way out and become a prostitute. A man has no such "luxury". Society does not pity weak men the way it pities weak women.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- realce 5y ago
  It's the apex of capitalist dehumanization to suggest that having few marketable services makes a person "weak" or that being having sex with people you don't love for money to eat food is a "luxury." Re-evaluate how you see people.
  - eevilspock 5y ago
    sadly the comments here reflect the overwhelming male capitalist bias of the HN community. - A transactional view of life and relationships. - Quick dismissal of concern for sex worker exploitation because "all jobs are exploitation", which simultaneously (a) minimizes the particularly bad nature of sexual exploitation, (b) speciously defines all work as exploitative, effectively neutering the word "exploitation" and (c) essentially saying exploitation is normal. - There's almost a palpable giddiness in the comments overall. You can sense the immense confirmation bias. A post by a sex worker who portrays it in very businesslike and mostly positive ways, speaking positively about most of her customers, essentially providing validation for men who want to buy sex, who don't want to feel any guilt, or think about whether they are being exploitative / taking advantage of an imbalance of power. - Few showing any awareness that Aella's is far from the typical experience, that most sex work is done in desperation, that our society doesn't give everyone even close to a level playing field. - A harsh reaction against anyone being a party pooper by raising negative issues. - Some comments showing veiled resentment that they have to pay a woman for sex, that women have it easier, that men are the unlucky ones, the oppressed ones. - Compare the reaction here to posts about sexism in the tech industry.
    - mikevm 5y ago
rndgermandude 5y ago
Short answer: yes. Longer answer: assuming there is no direct coercion, like a trafficker ring/pimp involved, I fail to see how this kind of struggle is any different than the single parent working night shifts at WalMart who still needs food stamps to feed the family. Or the low wage worker going to a factory each day ripping chickens apart so you can have your chicken breast and chicken nuggets. If your theoretical mom can make a living that does not require her to work 14h days in two jobs and never really see her kids, good for her, regardless of whether that involves sex work. Predatory drug dealers are not exclusive to sex work either. What's the alternative for your drug addicted hooker anyway? A "steady" job is probably out of the question at this point. So... burglary and robbery? I am empathetic to drug addicts and am all in favor of helping them, also at a regulatory level. Things like decriminalizing possession and easy access to a reasonably funded support system (with social workers, etc) and treatment for those willing to take that step. Driving drug addicts, who we as a society do not help enough or who refused our help, into a life of hard crime, taking away their livelihood and/or making them even more vulnerable to abuse (if you're a "lawless" prostitute, then you won't go to the police when you've been beaten up, raped and/or robbed for fear of being arrested yourself) is not a solution to me. All the resources spent right now punishing prostitutes and their clients could be redirected at fighting the actual criminals (the predatory drug dealers, human traffickers and pimps), and to help and support people struggling with drug addiction or mental illness as well as victims of human trafficking. I don't get how with prostitution a lot of people always proclaim "but we should ban it entirely because trafficking and pimps and drug dealers!". All the while we do not ban all factory jobs because "there are some sweat shops with defacto forced labor!".
- eevilspock 5y ago
  So do you see all of these examples, yours (the Walmat worker, chicken factory worker, etc) and mine (the woman doing sex work out of desperation) as just a fact of life, the nature of things, everyone's gotta do what they gotta do? Or do you see them all as exploitation? As manifestations of the inherent injustices of our socioeconomic system? Or something else? How do you feel about the description "consenting adults"? What about a female employee who doesn't stop her boss's sexual advances because he controls her income and career? Is that a transaction between consenting adults? (I never commented on legality of sex work. I was commenting only on "consenting adults" and... see my other replies.)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Yoric 5y ago
I personally don't feel that sex work is worse than any other work, unless we (society) make it so. I could be entirely wrong, but would a poor, struggling woman trying to do three non-sex jobs to feed that same child be in a particularly better position?
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  This question has an answer. If sex work is just like any other job, then many, if not most Western welfare societies demand that an unemployed person takes any job in their skill-set. So you end up demanding women go back to the prostitution - because there is an opening at the local brothel next to the truck stop. This isn't theoretical - it has happened more than once in Germany. https://www.smh.com.au/world/no-job-no-excuse-for-turning-down-sex-work-20050131-gdklhb.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/no-job-no-excuse-for-turning-do... https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/outrage-after-job-center-suggests-brothel-job-for-young-woman-in-germany-a-882021.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/outrage-after... So, no - its not normal work.
  - zajio1am 5y ago
    Is this really different than say vegetarian being demanded to take work in slaughterhouse?
    - throwaway210222 5y ago
      Vegatarianism isn't a job when I last checked, so no - its not the same thing.
  - Yoric 5y ago
    I'm not entirely sure I grasp what you're trying to demonstrate. 1. Yes, most Western societies demand that an unemployed person takes any job in their skill-set. 2. Yes, there are certainly openings at the local brothel. 3. With any luck, there are also openings for other jobs at the local supermarket, or as teachers, or as nannies, or working the fields, or cleaning cars, or coding, or... => Yes, some women (and I imagine some men) are going to end up sex workers. Others are going to become supermarket employees, teachers, nannies... I don't quite connect this to your affirmation that "its not normal work."

mbrodersen 5y ago

Yes of course. She has the option to do it or not. A male in the same situation might not even have the option.

devoutsalsa 5y ago

We all do stuff we'd rather not do for money.

kfprt 5y ago
Is there no limit to what you would do for money?
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  Of course there's a limit, but... > If a woman is poor, struggling to survive or trying to give a child a decent life in a society and economic system that is very sink or swim, do you consider it "consent" if she agrees to have sex with you so she can pay the rent, or have a decent meal, or buy the drugs she got hooked on dealing with depression and alienation, sold to her by a predatory drug dealer? I give my boss consent to ask me to do stuff I'd rather not do. That's why they pay me. If I didn't get paid, I certainly wouldn't be doing things like attending Scrum meetings and fixing CSS bugs. People tend to treat sex work like it's some sort of demeaning thing that no one should have to endure. If I had to choose between 1 hour of entertaining sexually entertaining someone for $1200 or 100 hours @ $12/hour of dealing with a shit boss in a demeaning dead-end job, I choose the former. And I choose neither if I don't need the money at all.
  - naasking 5y ago
    > People tend to treat sex work like it's some sort of demeaning thing that no one should have to endure. I think this is exactly it. Many people can't imagine themselves having sex for money. Most people also can't imagine cutting into people as they do in surgery, but we don't ban surgery. The purported "difference" is that surgery helps people. Sure, and helping a disabled person experience human intimacy is not helping them? Another purported difference is that prostitution harms people where surgery does not. I think plastic surgery harms quite a few people, psychologically and physically. The real "problem" here is people's hang ups about sex.
    - mikevm 5y ago
      How the fsck is performing surgery analogous to being sexually penetrated by a stranger for money? > Sure, and helping a disabled person experience human intimacy is not helping them? First of all, it's all fake, there's no real intimacy there. Secondly, you make it sound like these whores take the job out of the goodness of their hearts. Having sex with cripples is the last thing on their mind... it's money first and foremost. Otherwise they'd just get a normal paying job like any other person who has self-dignity. > The real "problem" here is people's hang ups about sex. The real problem here is you misunderstanding human nature and attempting to normalize and rationalize something which clearly goes *against* human nature. Sex is not a commodity, selling sex for money is taboo and frowned upon in pretty much every society, even the so-called progressive ones that legalized prostitution. Since this stigma is universal to every society, there must be a psycho-biological reason for it, therefore prostitution is always going to be a niche, and never going to be "mainstreamed" ("My daughter is a prostitute!" said the proud mother).
      - naasking 5y ago
        > How the fsck is performing surgery analogous to being sexually penetrated by a stranger for money? I just explained how. Read it again if you're not clear. > First of all, it's all fake, there's no real intimacy there. And you know this from first-hand experience I take it? > Secondly, you make it sound like these whores take the job out of the goodness of their hearts. Having sex with cripples is the last thing on their mind... it's money first and foremost. And I take it you work for your employer out of the goodness of your heart? No? So I guess the financial compensation must imply that you're not doing a good job. I mean, that is basically what you're saying. > The real problem here is you misunderstanding human nature and attempting to normalize and rationalize something which clearly goes against human nature. So what everyone agrees is "the oldest profession" is "against human nature". Haha, ok dude. > Sex is not a commodity, selling sex for money is taboo and frowned upon in pretty much every society No it's not. Some societies had accepted prostitution before they were colonized or conquered. > Since this stigma is universal to every society, there must be a psycho-biological reason for it Your pseudoscientific evolutionary justification is nonsense. The societies you're thinking of were colonized or conquered so there are obvious cultural reasons for shared taboos. And even if your psycho-biological nonsense had even one iota of truth to it, it's completely irrelevant. By parity of reasoning we should therefore enshrine religious or supernatural theology in government policy because every society believed in supernatural supreme beings of some kind. > therefore prostitution is always going to be a niche, and never going to be "mainstreamed" ("My daughter is a prostitute!" said the proud mother). Ok, so it'll stay a niche. What's the problem? No one is going to be proud that their daughter works at McDonald's either. That's not a justification for why it should be illegal.

rockbruno 5y ago

This is not a good take, what you described applies to every single person in the world with a job. The correct reason sex work is a complex subject is because it involves human trafficking.

kfprt 5y ago
And intimacy in a way few other workers experience.
- naasking 5y ago
  If intimacy or attachment is a problem for you, then don't do that kind of sex work. I don't see how this is any different than other jobs. If I'm not physically strong, I'm not going to be a mover or a fire fighter.

strken 5y ago

Seems a bit inconsistent to throw desperate addicts/single mothers in jail if they steal car stereos for meth money/baby food, but blame their johns if they turn to sex work instead. Which is it?

eevilspock 5y ago
I did not make a comment on the issue of legality, and if you read my comment with an ounce of good faith reason and logic, you would never have put the words you just did into my mouth, and instead focus on what I actually said. I was commenting on the casualness and callousness with which he uses "consenting adults" without regard to the power imbalance as well as the statistics with regard to sex workers and their "freedom". Look at the attitude in the other replies: > At least a woman can take the easy way out and become a prostitute. A man has no such "luxury". Society does not pity weak men the way it pities weak women. > what you described applies to every single person in the world with a job. > We all do stuff we'd rather not do for money. And then there's the guy comparing strangers putting their penises into your mouth and vagina, always in fear of sexual assault, disease, degradation to "attending Scrum meetings and fixing CSS bugs." Even you, with "but blame their johns", ignoring any notion of exploitation of the desperate and vulnerable.
- strken 5y ago
  My biggest problem here is that pretty much all working class labour has deep power imbalances and rampant systemic exploitation, but none of the discussion around it robs the labourer of quite as much agency as the discussion around prostitution. Very few people point to Amazon warehouse pickers and say the nature of the work is so obviously non-consensual it should be illegal, even if they're forced into it by impending homelessness or addiction. It irritates me when people who are making the best of the hand they're dealt get talked down to like they haven't made a choice, and thrown in jail because they're trying to put food on the table. Yeah, vulnerable people are prostituting themselves because the alternative is worse, but how does making prostitution illegal fix the problem? It's a dumb knee-jerk reaction that makes everything worse - prostitution is driven underground, governments can't ask about working conditions or prosecute bad johns, and vulnerable people end up in jail.

npteljes 5y ago

How does prostitution being illegal improve this situation?

eevilspock 5y ago
i did not comment on legality. See my other reply.

mikevm 5y ago

At least a woman can take the easy way out and become a prostitute. A man has no such "luxury". Society does not pity weak men the way it pities weak women.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
realce 5y ago
It's the apex of capitalist dehumanization to suggest that having few marketable services makes a person "weak" or that being having sex with people you don't love for money to eat food is a "luxury." Re-evaluate how you see people.
- eevilspock 5y ago
  sadly the comments here reflect the overwhelming male capitalist bias of the HN community. - A transactional view of life and relationships. - Quick dismissal of concern for sex worker exploitation because "all jobs are exploitation", which simultaneously (a) minimizes the particularly bad nature of sexual exploitation, (b) speciously defines all work as exploitative, effectively neutering the word "exploitation" and (c) essentially saying exploitation is normal. - There's almost a palpable giddiness in the comments overall. You can sense the immense confirmation bias. A post by a sex worker who portrays it in very businesslike and mostly positive ways, speaking positively about most of her customers, essentially providing validation for men who want to buy sex, who don't want to feel any guilt, or think about whether they are being exploitative / taking advantage of an imbalance of power. - Few showing any awareness that Aella's is far from the typical experience, that most sex work is done in desperation, that our society doesn't give everyone even close to a level playing field. - A harsh reaction against anyone being a party pooper by raising negative issues. - Some comments showing veiled resentment that they have to pay a woman for sex, that women have it easier, that men are the unlucky ones, the oppressed ones. - Compare the reaction here to posts about sexism in the tech industry.
  - mikevm 5y ago

rndgermandude 5y ago

Short answer: yes. Longer answer: assuming there is no direct coercion, like a trafficker ring/pimp involved, I fail to see how this kind of struggle is any different than the single parent working night shifts at WalMart who still needs food stamps to feed the family. Or the low wage worker going to a factory each day ripping chickens apart so you can have your chicken breast and chicken nuggets. If your theoretical mom can make a living that does not require her to work 14h days in two jobs and never really see her kids, good for her, regardless of whether that involves sex work. Predatory drug dealers are not exclusive to sex work either. What's the alternative for your drug addicted hooker anyway? A "steady" job is probably out of the question at this point. So... burglary and robbery? I am empathetic to drug addicts and am all in favor of helping them, also at a regulatory level. Things like decriminalizing possession and easy access to a reasonably funded support system (with social workers, etc) and treatment for those willing to take that step. Driving drug addicts, who we as a society do not help enough or who refused our help, into a life of hard crime, taking away their livelihood and/or making them even more vulnerable to abuse (if you're a "lawless" prostitute, then you won't go to the police when you've been beaten up, raped and/or robbed for fear of being arrested yourself) is not a solution to me. All the resources spent right now punishing prostitutes and their clients could be redirected at fighting the actual criminals (the predatory drug dealers, human traffickers and pimps), and to help and support people struggling with drug addiction or mental illness as well as victims of human trafficking. I don't get how with prostitution a lot of people always proclaim "but we should ban it entirely because trafficking and pimps and drug dealers!". All the while we do not ban all factory jobs because "there are some sweat shops with defacto forced labor!".

eevilspock 5y ago
So do you see all of these examples, yours (the Walmat worker, chicken factory worker, etc) and mine (the woman doing sex work out of desperation) as just a fact of life, the nature of things, everyone's gotta do what they gotta do? Or do you see them all as exploitation? As manifestations of the inherent injustices of our socioeconomic system? Or something else? How do you feel about the description "consenting adults"? What about a female employee who doesn't stop her boss's sexual advances because he controls her income and career? Is that a transaction between consenting adults? (I never commented on legality of sex work. I was commenting only on "consenting adults" and... see my other replies.)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Yoric 5y ago

I personally don't feel that sex work is worse than any other work, unless we (society) make it so. I could be entirely wrong, but would a poor, struggling woman trying to do three non-sex jobs to feed that same child be in a particularly better position?

throwaway210222 5y ago
This question has an answer. If sex work is just like any other job, then many, if not most Western welfare societies demand that an unemployed person takes any job in their skill-set. So you end up demanding women go back to the prostitution - because there is an opening at the local brothel next to the truck stop. This isn't theoretical - it has happened more than once in Germany. https://www.smh.com.au/world/no-job-no-excuse-for-turning-down-sex-work-20050131-gdklhb.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/no-job-no-excuse-for-turning-do... https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/outrage-after-job-center-suggests-brothel-job-for-young-woman-in-germany-a-882021.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/outrage-after... So, no - its not normal work.
- zajio1am 5y ago
  Is this really different than say vegetarian being demanded to take work in slaughterhouse?
  - throwaway210222 5y ago
    Vegatarianism isn't a job when I last checked, so no - its not the same thing.
- Yoric 5y ago
  I'm not entirely sure I grasp what you're trying to demonstrate. 1. Yes, most Western societies demand that an unemployed person takes any job in their skill-set. 2. Yes, there are certainly openings at the local brothel. 3. With any luck, there are also openings for other jobs at the local supermarket, or as teachers, or as nannies, or working the fields, or cleaning cars, or coding, or... => Yes, some women (and I imagine some men) are going to end up sex workers. Others are going to become supermarket employees, teachers, nannies... I don't quite connect this to your affirmation that "its not normal work."