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Yet, many men wake up with the desire to build things. That is not an atypical desire. Many men wake up with a desire to build things for money. Many women do a

Yet, many men wake up with the desire to build things. That is not an atypical desire. Many men wake up with a desire to build things for money. Many women do as well. Few people wake up wanting to sell their procreative parts to the highest bidder.

EllieEffingMae 5y ago
If you're okay with one of these things but not the other, then you are applying a double standard based on a moralisation of sex. Sex as labour is no different than any labour, and there is no criticism of sex work that is whole an complete that does not also criticise the very system you're defending.
- heurisko 5y ago
  > Sex as labour is no different than any labour. If that is true, then a thought experiment would be: should refusing to enter prostitution be a grounds for losing jobseekers' welfare, eg. jobseekers allowance [1]? [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jobseekers-allowance-sanctions-leaflet/jobseekers-allowance-sanctions-how-to-keep-your-benefit-payment#what-must-i-do-to-keep-my-benefit-payment https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jobseekers-allowa...
  - strken 5y ago
    It's comparable to working in a butcher that specialises in pork. Clearly, the job would be unsuitable for a Muslim or vegan jobseeker. That's why the government website specifies suitable jobs and has an exception for a good reason not to do the job. I agree with the general principle that not all labour is the same, but I don't think prostitution is in a class of its own. If you paid me enough I'd probably do it for a week and then retire.
    - another_why 5y ago
      > If you paid me enough I'd probably do it for a week and then retire. Maybe this means that you don't really like your job? If you had access to the same goods as everyone else around you, more or less, and liked what you are doing, then doing it for a week stops making sense, doesn't it?
      - strken 5y ago
        If I had millions of dollars I'd stop going to work 5 days a week for a company I don't own, yes. This seems like it'd be true of most people.
        another_why 5y ago
        For me it would've been ok to work 6/5(better 6/4) for the rest of my life if it actually was something meaningful for the society, and if I had an opportunity to occasionally switch to smth different, and if i got a stable life for it. Even if i didn't like the job with all my heart
- iammisc 5y ago
  Sex is very different. Last I checked, no matter how much construction work you do, you will never construct another person, even by accident. Sex is not just another activity. Due to its effects of potentially creating a new human being, it is a category unto itself and deserves special treatment. For example, would you sell your pancreas? Why not? Is it because a vital organ is not in the same class of goods as say a lightbulb? The same is true of selling sex, which is not just some social interaction, but a social interaction that can literally make a new person Your kind of equivocation is morally lazy and conveniently abiological.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    There are a lot of people in this world who sold their organs for money. Or people who accept to be infected with various diseases for money.
  - naasking 5y ago
    > For example, would you sell your pancreas? Why not? Is it because a vital organ is not in the same class of goods as say a lightbulb? [...] Your kind of equivocation is morally lazy and conveniently abiological. Speaking of lazy, that's a pretty ridiculous comparison. Depriving yourself of a vital organ is not the same as renting out your genitals for a limited time. "Making a new person" is also a complete red herring. You can hire a surrogate to carry a baby to term, which is also paying to use someone else's genitals to actually make a new person. The only meaningful difference is the absence of "sex", so I think it's clear what you really have a problem with.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      > You can hire a surrogate to carry a baby to term In the vast majority of first world countries this is illegal for precisely the reasons I described. Only extremely poor countries or barbaric jurisdictions, such as California, allow paid surrogacy. > not the same as renting out your genitals for a limited time. Given the genitals ability to produce life that can last many years beyond yourself, you're absolutely right. Renting out your genitals is much worse.
- another_why 5y ago
  > Sex as labour is no different than any labour, In capitalistic society everything can be called labour, including selling people, their organs and their genitals for sex.
naasking 5y ago
> Few people wake up wanting to sell their procreative parts to the highest bidder. Even supposing few people want to do that, I don't see how it follows that nobody should be permitted to do it. You're missing a critical step.
- iammisc 5y ago
  Because the action under consideration is of a wholly different class than the others you mention. For example, we regulate ivf, don't we? Why? Because the action undertaken has the ability to create new life. The same is true of prostitution. The action undertaken is of a wholly different nature. Namely it can create people, which is different than any other labor. Tolerating homosexual prostitution is actually more akin to your other analogies in that the action undertaken is not special. Although anal intercourse in general ought to be discouraged due to its deleterious health effects.
  - naasking 5y ago
    > For example, we regulate ivf, don't we? Why? Because the action undertaken has the ability to create new life. The same is true of prostitution. No, we don't regulate it because it can create new life, we regulate it because it falls under healthcare for which doctors have a certain duty of care, and if IVF is done poorly it can cause all sorts of deleterious health effects for the mother and the implanted embryo. These considerations do not apply to prostitution since we have contraception and abortion.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      Nonsense, we directly regulate even that which is not about health care. For example, most countries limit the amount of children a man can sire via sperm donation. > These considerations do not apply to prostitution since we have contraception and abortion. Whose burden falls solely on the women, and for which large portions of the population would object to the use of abortion as birth control. Even many pro-abortion people object to abortion's use as birth control, because they view abortion as justified murder, but murder nevertheless.

EllieEffingMae 5y ago

If you're okay with one of these things but not the other, then you are applying a double standard based on a moralisation of sex. Sex as labour is no different than any labour, and there is no criticism of sex work that is whole an complete that does not also criticise the very system you're defending.

heurisko 5y ago
> Sex as labour is no different than any labour. If that is true, then a thought experiment would be: should refusing to enter prostitution be a grounds for losing jobseekers' welfare, eg. jobseekers allowance [1]? [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jobseekers-allowance-sanctions-leaflet/jobseekers-allowance-sanctions-how-to-keep-your-benefit-payment#what-must-i-do-to-keep-my-benefit-payment https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jobseekers-allowa...
- strken 5y ago
  It's comparable to working in a butcher that specialises in pork. Clearly, the job would be unsuitable for a Muslim or vegan jobseeker. That's why the government website specifies suitable jobs and has an exception for a good reason not to do the job. I agree with the general principle that not all labour is the same, but I don't think prostitution is in a class of its own. If you paid me enough I'd probably do it for a week and then retire.
  - another_why 5y ago
    > If you paid me enough I'd probably do it for a week and then retire. Maybe this means that you don't really like your job? If you had access to the same goods as everyone else around you, more or less, and liked what you are doing, then doing it for a week stops making sense, doesn't it?
    - strken 5y ago
      If I had millions of dollars I'd stop going to work 5 days a week for a company I don't own, yes. This seems like it'd be true of most people.
      - another_why 5y ago
        For me it would've been ok to work 6/5(better 6/4) for the rest of my life if it actually was something meaningful for the society, and if I had an opportunity to occasionally switch to smth different, and if i got a stable life for it. Even if i didn't like the job with all my heart
iammisc 5y ago
Sex is very different. Last I checked, no matter how much construction work you do, you will never construct another person, even by accident. Sex is not just another activity. Due to its effects of potentially creating a new human being, it is a category unto itself and deserves special treatment. For example, would you sell your pancreas? Why not? Is it because a vital organ is not in the same class of goods as say a lightbulb? The same is true of selling sex, which is not just some social interaction, but a social interaction that can literally make a new person Your kind of equivocation is morally lazy and conveniently abiological.
- hulitu 5y ago
  There are a lot of people in this world who sold their organs for money. Or people who accept to be infected with various diseases for money.
- naasking 5y ago
  > For example, would you sell your pancreas? Why not? Is it because a vital organ is not in the same class of goods as say a lightbulb? [...] Your kind of equivocation is morally lazy and conveniently abiological. Speaking of lazy, that's a pretty ridiculous comparison. Depriving yourself of a vital organ is not the same as renting out your genitals for a limited time. "Making a new person" is also a complete red herring. You can hire a surrogate to carry a baby to term, which is also paying to use someone else's genitals to actually make a new person. The only meaningful difference is the absence of "sex", so I think it's clear what you really have a problem with.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    > You can hire a surrogate to carry a baby to term In the vast majority of first world countries this is illegal for precisely the reasons I described. Only extremely poor countries or barbaric jurisdictions, such as California, allow paid surrogacy. > not the same as renting out your genitals for a limited time. Given the genitals ability to produce life that can last many years beyond yourself, you're absolutely right. Renting out your genitals is much worse.
another_why 5y ago
> Sex as labour is no different than any labour, In capitalistic society everything can be called labour, including selling people, their organs and their genitals for sex.

naasking 5y ago

> Few people wake up wanting to sell their procreative parts to the highest bidder. Even supposing few people want to do that, I don't see how it follows that nobody should be permitted to do it. You're missing a critical step.

iammisc 5y ago
Because the action under consideration is of a wholly different class than the others you mention. For example, we regulate ivf, don't we? Why? Because the action undertaken has the ability to create new life. The same is true of prostitution. The action undertaken is of a wholly different nature. Namely it can create people, which is different than any other labor. Tolerating homosexual prostitution is actually more akin to your other analogies in that the action undertaken is not special. Although anal intercourse in general ought to be discouraged due to its deleterious health effects.
- naasking 5y ago
  > For example, we regulate ivf, don't we? Why? Because the action undertaken has the ability to create new life. The same is true of prostitution. No, we don't regulate it because it can create new life, we regulate it because it falls under healthcare for which doctors have a certain duty of care, and if IVF is done poorly it can cause all sorts of deleterious health effects for the mother and the implanted embryo. These considerations do not apply to prostitution since we have contraception and abortion.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Nonsense, we directly regulate even that which is not about health care. For example, most countries limit the amount of children a man can sire via sperm donation. > These considerations do not apply to prostitution since we have contraception and abortion. Whose burden falls solely on the women, and for which large portions of the population would object to the use of abortion as birth control. Even many pro-abortion people object to abortion's use as birth control, because they view abortion as justified murder, but murder nevertheless.